Do guilt & shame make theists happy?
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05-11-2015, 02:27 PM
RE: Do guilt & shame make theists happy?
(05-11-2015 02:04 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(05-11-2015 09:16 AM)Clockwork Wrote:  That was kind of unwritten rule, at least at one church. If you could point fingers or pass gossip off as truth, you circumvented the rules.

The old "I'm not one to gossip, but Widow Jones cooked Mr Smith a big dinner at his house."

"I'm not one to gossip, but I'm totally about to gossip to you!"

or

"I know we're not supposed to gossip, and we should feel guilty if we do, but I loooove gossiping, so I'll do it anyway."

or

"I know we're not supposed to gossip, but so-and-so is sinning, and I want to talk about their sinning behind their back. Don't you hate it when people sin? The only thing worse is people without a sense of irony."


You'd think anyone capable of even an ounce of introspection would realize that if what they're about to say is lead with "I'm not one to gossip, but...", they should just shut their fucking mouth.

A common line I remember is "I'm coming to you for prayer for so-and-so. They are committing such-and-such sin and they need your intercessory prayer. Please pray for them to repent and resist this temptation."

There- now it's not "gossip", but instead, it's constructive intercession. And it's fulfilled the same purpose as gossip. Gotta find a way to justify scratching that itch!
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06-11-2015, 08:22 AM
RE: Do guilt & shame make theists happy?
(05-11-2015 02:27 PM)kineo Wrote:  A common line I remember is "I'm coming to you for prayer for so-and-so. They are committing such-and-such sin and they need your intercessory prayer. Please pray for them to repent and resist this temptation."

There- now it's not "gossip", but instead, it's constructive intercession. And it's fulfilled the same purpose as gossip. Gotta find a way to justify scratching that itch!

Oh, sneaky!

Never underestimate the tenacity of a Christian to circumvent the purpose of their rules while technically following them... you know, like Jesus said not to. Ha!

Their own god says they're going to hell! Although, in all fairness, in other parts of the Bible, he says they're not, so, there's that.
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06-11-2015, 05:44 PM
RE: Do guilt & shame make theists happy?
Not sure about other religions, but in Catholicism, there's a joke that's actually serious. We learned about mental reservations, where you lie by not lying. Example:

Suppose you work in a city called Oak City. You live in a nearby town, Pine Town. Your boss, who is at work, calls you and asks you to come in. You don't want to, so you say, "I can't, boss. I'm out of town." You're implying that you're so far away that you can't make it in. But The Truth is that since you live in Pine Town and he's calling from Oak City, you're not lying. You're saying it so he can infer something. It's not your fault he doesn't know what you mean!

Or... as a kid, you and your sibling are playing ball indoors. Big no-no! You walk backwards and hit Mom's vase and it falls. You say, "I didn't see who broke it." Well, you didn't, because you didn't see yourself and besides, you didn't see the vase. It's not your fault she didn't ask the right question!
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06-11-2015, 05:50 PM
RE: Do guilt & shame make theists happy?
(06-11-2015 05:44 PM)Clockwork Wrote:  Not sure about other religions, but in Catholicism, there's a joke that's actually serious. We learned about mental reservations, where you lie by not lying. Example:

Suppose you work in a city called Oak City. You live in a nearby town, Pine Town. Your boss, who is at work, calls you and asks you to come in. You don't want to, so you say, "I can't, boss. I'm out of town." You're implying that you're so far away that you can't make it in. But The Truth is that since you live in Pine Town and he's calling from Oak City, you're not lying. You're saying it so he can infer something. It's not your fault he doesn't know what you mean!

Or... as a kid, you and your sibling are playing ball indoors. Big no-no! You walk backwards and hit Mom's vase and it falls. You say, "I didn't see who broke it." Well, you didn't, because you didn't see yourself and besides, you didn't see the vase. It's not your fault she didn't ask the right question!
Hah!

When the movie "true lies" came out, I was very young. I asked my siblings what a true lie was, and they essentially said *huge paraphrase to follow* it's when you avoid answering a question by saying a statement that is technically true, but misleads the person who asked the question into thinking that is the extent of your knowledge.

The example we used was...Let's say you saw the dog playing in the front yard and your mom comes out asking, "Did you see the dog in the back yard?" You answer, "No, I didn't see him in the back yard". Obviously you knew the information she wanted to know, but chose to omit that knowledge in your response.

I prefer fantasy, but I have to live in reality.
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09-11-2015, 08:31 AM
RE: Do guilt & shame make theists happy?
(06-11-2015 05:44 PM)Clockwork Wrote:  Not sure about other religions, but in Catholicism, there's a joke that's actually serious. We learned about mental reservations, where you lie by not lying.

So, is this actually supported by their dogma?

I was talking to someone about this last month. The idea that our society seems to place a heavier emphasis on not lying as opposed to not deceiving. He wasn't seeing the problem, but my point was that really any form of deliberate deception is a problem of getting people to believe falsehoods. I'd wondered how much of this was based on a very literal reading of the Thou Shall Not Lie commandment.

Everyone gets mad when they see some lawyer weasel out of an obvious interpretation of a law (unless it's benefiting them), yet everyone seems to think this is just fine when they do it to someone else!
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09-11-2015, 10:55 AM
RE: Do guilt & shame make theists happy?
(09-11-2015 08:31 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(06-11-2015 05:44 PM)Clockwork Wrote:  Not sure about other religions, but in Catholicism, there's a joke that's actually serious. We learned about mental reservations, where you lie by not lying.

So, is this actually supported by their dogma?
It's an unofficial part of it. In my experience it was always brought up during Commandments talk. Mind you, I've lived in two countries and this happened in both!
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09-11-2015, 11:22 AM
RE: Do guilt & shame make theists happy?
(09-11-2015 08:31 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  ... a very literal reading of the Thou Shall Not Lie commandment ...

To me lying and deceit are so synonymous as to be interchangeable, and deceits have many forms other than direct language. How many "lies" are "told" by silence?

Deceit is a vital (i.e. essential) component of any society, human or otherwise, and, like any component of societal interaction, is both beneficial and harmful, sometimes at the same time. I think the disapproving focus we give "lying" misses the more salient point: who gains and who loses and to what degree by a particular social interaction.

But it's easy to miss that point, or to deliberately fail to see it (more lying Tongue) because its only answers are almost wholly subjective. Metrics to gauge harm/benefit ratios aren't in the CRC tables. Nonetheless, that's where we should put our attention, not on the specific category of action. By making a specific category of action taboo, we only increase our social neurosis (when the taboo clashes with the necessity to violate it), and we wind up more miserable and confused.
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