Do or Die
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29-09-2016, 02:26 PM
RE: Do or Die
(29-09-2016 11:00 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  If the rich want to leave, let 'em.

I wonder why they don't take their wealth and selves to some undeveloped armpit where they can bribe officials and get away without paying taxes.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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29-09-2016, 02:34 PM
RE: Do or Die
(29-09-2016 02:26 PM)tomilay Wrote:  
(29-09-2016 11:00 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  If the rich want to leave, let 'em.

I wonder why they don't take their wealth and selves to some undeveloped armpit where they can bribe officials and get away without paying taxes.

Because it takes cubic yards of money to move the infrastructure. In cases where a long-term return on investment can be expected though, it does happen. Take the recent move by Ford, building even more auto manufacturing plants in Mexico. When Trump claims he's going to bring jobs back to the US, that's another line of shit. Moving production back to where there is a higher prevailing wage is a non-starter. I think that there are more jobs lost due to automation than have moved off this continent.

And maybe the graft would be worse than taxes...
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29-09-2016, 02:46 PM
RE: Do or Die
(29-09-2016 02:01 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(29-09-2016 01:12 PM)Stevil Wrote:  I guess it comes down to your expectations of business owners.
I think their main goal is to make profit and returns for the investors. That's it. That is what they ought to do.

Which is precisely why you cannot rely upon them to protect the best interest of your citizens.
Who is relying on businesses to protect interests of citizens? I don't know where this comes from? We also don't rely on businesses to build parks or to beautify our beaches, so what? I'm not understanding your point on this.

(29-09-2016 02:01 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(29-09-2016 01:12 PM)Stevil Wrote:  In order to do that, they probably need to make things that consumers want and at a price that consumers will pay.

Unless they have a monopoly, the end goal for every profit driven venture, the point at which they no longer have meaningful competition.
A wise government will have anti-monopoly measures in place.

(29-09-2016 02:01 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(29-09-2016 01:12 PM)Stevil Wrote:  In doing that they need to employ people, perhaps even educate employees, perhaps even build infrastructure, like roads, and power and water supply in order to support their factories. These are all beneficial and although not a goal of the business they are a consequence of a successful business.

Consequence of a successful business? Nope. You just described public works.
Huh, you don't think business employ people?
You don't think business bring in the need for decent infrastructure?

Just take a look at India or other poor countries, when industry comes, so does infrastructure, also schools etc, industry is the life's blood of a thriving economy.

(29-09-2016 02:01 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(29-09-2016 01:12 PM)Stevil Wrote:  It's not greed. It is the purpose of a business to give return on investment. Why else would you do it? Business isn't a charity, it isn't a cash cow.

It is greed. Everything, including morality and ethics, is subservient to profit.
I really don't know why you are talking about morality and ethics. Business aren't churches. It isn't there place to be moral or promote morality. Why would you expect them to?

(29-09-2016 02:01 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  That's why business need regulations, because they cannot be trusted.
I'm not entirely against regulations, but of course I deem it as very serious when the govt interferes. So regulations ought to be kept in check.
Businesses aren't evil. It isn't evil to want to have a thriving and profitable business.

(29-09-2016 02:01 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Unless they set up a hiring cartel with their competition, mutually agreeing with each other to artificially keep their wages lower and not scalp each other's talent, so that they all make more money from lower wages paid out to their employees. That shit can, and does, happen. In Silicon Valley, many of the largest tech firms (Apple, Google, Intel, etc.) have this gentleman's agreement in place. In a corporation, everything is subservient to profit.
Sounds like an out there conspiracy to me. People switch jobs all the time, talented people get head hunted and get paid huge salaries.

(29-09-2016 02:01 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(29-09-2016 01:12 PM)Stevil Wrote:  No, why would you. It isn't a business' purpose to safeguard rights and protections for citizenry, what on earth gave you that idea?

Just point out why they are not to be trusted, when you seem so willing to bend yourself over and let them fuck you in the ass with a smile on your face, lest they head off and go fuck someone else in your stead.
You seem to have a very negative view of successful people, of employers.
I see them as providing me with a job and income and opportunity for me to upskill. If I don't like my current employer then I seek other arrangements by applying for other jobs. In the meantime, I work, I get paid, I have the odd holiday, I still get paid, I do some training, I still get paid. I don't count that as being fucked in the ass.
I am grateful to have a job.

(29-09-2016 02:01 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(29-09-2016 01:12 PM)Stevil Wrote:  It benefits no-one just to be giving money out like you have an endless supply. Money has to come from somewhere. If you support business then you have a source of income and a source of jobs.

Income for who? In the United States, corporations are sitting on some of the largest piles of cash they have ever had, and they're not doing shit with it.
Really?! that sounds like poor management to have all that capital and not get returns from it. They will surely go under at that rate.

(29-09-2016 02:01 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  They have the money to hire people, or pay better wages, but they're not. Why?
They aren't a charity. If the business case doesn't stack up then they spend the money on other things. there is no obligation to hire more staff than you need. No obligation to pay a staff member more than they are worth.

(29-09-2016 02:01 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Wages have been stagnant for decades, so people's buying power hasn't increased. In their drive for profitability, they're killing off their own market.
Really?, they are often outsourcing to lower costs, looking to automate to lower costs. Consumers are lucky to be able to reap the benefits of that.

(29-09-2016 02:01 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Every year that passes without a raise in wages, but the cost of living goes up, means there's less left over for the rest of the economy.
You put wages up,then perhaps since costs are now higher you raise the price of your goods, now cost of living goes up even higher. Or perhaps offshore companies making the same thing can do it cheaper and your business goes under, and onshore jobs are lost.
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29-09-2016, 02:53 PM
RE: Do or Die
(29-09-2016 02:16 PM)tomilay Wrote:  To compare such an exceptional slice of a population to the weakest and suggest you have found the solution is misguided.

That most poor people cannot escape poverty without a helping hand should be rather obvious. Free education is good. As is good nutrition, hygiene, mental health etc.
I'm just saying that the opportunity is there. Why people don't take up that opportunity is a different matter and isn't resolved by handing out a lifetime supply of cash.
Teach them to fish rather than give them fish.
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29-09-2016, 03:15 PM
RE: Do or Die
(29-09-2016 02:46 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(29-09-2016 02:01 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Consequence of a successful business? Nope. You just described public works.
Huh, you don't think business employ people?
You don't think business bring in the need for decent infrastructure?

Just take a look at India or other poor countries, when industry comes, so does infrastructure, also schools etc, industry is the life's blood of a thriving economy.

It's the other way round. Industry will follow infrastructure .e.g. Singapore under Lee Kuan Yew. Multinational corporations only set up shop when the country was organized enough to win over their confidence. Not a moment before, when Singapore was a still struggling backwater.

The exceptions are exploitative industries digging stuff from the ground like you will find in many parts of Africa. And in those cases, they are more than happy to put in just enough infrastructure to get what they want. The Democratic Republic of Congo has no infrastructure worth the name, yet you still have major mining companies doing thriving business in the country.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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29-09-2016, 03:25 PM
RE: Do or Die
(29-09-2016 02:53 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(29-09-2016 02:16 PM)tomilay Wrote:  To compare such an exceptional slice of a population to the weakest and suggest you have found the solution is misguided.

That most poor people cannot escape poverty without a helping hand should be rather obvious. Free education is good. As is good nutrition, hygiene, mental health etc.
I'm just saying that the opportunity is there. Why people don't take up that opportunity is a different matter and isn't resolved by handing out a lifetime supply of cash.
Teach them to fish rather than give them fish.

The reason I find that approach not productive is because it's unlikely to be replicated. It's an unusual outcome. Entrepreneurs form a very small slice of any population.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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29-09-2016, 04:01 PM
RE: Do or Die
(29-09-2016 03:25 PM)tomilay Wrote:  
(29-09-2016 02:53 PM)Stevil Wrote:  I'm just saying that the opportunity is there. Why people don't take up that opportunity is a different matter and isn't resolved by handing out a lifetime supply of cash.
Teach them to fish rather than give them fish.

The reason I find that approach not productive is because it's unlikely to be replicated. It's an unusual outcome. Entrepreneurs form a very small slice of any population.
Are you saying:
a)it is unlikely for poor parents to send their kids to school?
b) it is unlikely for poor parents to encourage their kids to do well at school?
c) it is unlikely for kids of poor parents to gain school qualifications?
d) it is unlikely for kids of poor parents, who have gained qualifications to then go and get a well paid job?

Sorry, but I don't get what you are saying.
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29-09-2016, 04:25 PM
RE: Do or Die
(29-09-2016 04:01 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(29-09-2016 03:25 PM)tomilay Wrote:  The reason I find that approach not productive is because it's unlikely to be replicated. It's an unusual outcome. Entrepreneurs form a very small slice of any population.
Are you saying:
a)it is unlikely for poor parents to send their kids to school?
b) it is unlikely for poor parents to encourage their kids to do well at school?
c) it is unlikely for kids of poor parents to gain school qualifications?
d) it is unlikely for kids of poor parents, who have gained qualifications to then go and get a well paid job?

Sorry, but I don't get what you are saying.

I have said nothing about any of the above.

You are saying there are opportunities that exceptional immigrants have been able to take advantage of. A guy shows up with the shirt on his back and goes on to own thriving businesses. Ergo the poor need no helping hand. The implication being that the poor just need to do what those immigrants did. Heck they could just do what the few exceptional ones among them have done.

I am saying that an exceptional outcome is a bad template for how to reduce poverty because it is not normal. That entrepreneurs form a small slice, even among the well off.

Most people in the developed countries just follow a routine unchallenging grind for a comfortable life. Among the middle class, at least in the US, quite a few are falling through the cracks not because of a poor economy, lack of education or drive, but because of the increasing concentration of economic benefits in the hands of a few. Tax cuts for the rich are just splurged on yachts and that kind of thing - creating a handful of menial jobs.

There are other falsehoods such as the unfounded claim that welfare leads to negative outcomes - namely dependency. What data and controls do you have to support that claim besides an anecdote which is the worst form of data?

You've stressed free education as a good start. If affordable education is good, why not an affordable and comfortable home environment while at it? Good nutrition, healthcare?

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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29-09-2016, 04:40 PM
RE: Do or Die
(29-09-2016 04:25 PM)tomilay Wrote:  You are saying there are opportunities that exceptional immigrants have been able to take advantage of.
I didn't say that at all.
I said there are opportunities for everyone, regardless if you are poor.

(29-09-2016 04:25 PM)tomilay Wrote:  A guy shows up with the shirt on his back and goes on to own thriving businesses. Ergo the poor need no helping hand.
Ergo there is opportunity despite being poor.

(29-09-2016 04:25 PM)tomilay Wrote:  The implication being that the poor just need to do what those immigrants did.
Ergo, poverty isn't a valid excuse.

(29-09-2016 04:25 PM)tomilay Wrote:  Heck they could just do what the few exceptional ones among them have done.
If you think that poor don't have the opportunities, then I'd like to hear why.
Why can't they get the qualifications and the good jobs? Why not?

(29-09-2016 04:25 PM)tomilay Wrote:  Most people in the developed countries just follow a routine unchallenging grind for a comfortable life. Among the middle class, at least in the US, quite a few are falling through the cracks not because of a poor economy, lack of education or drive, but because of the increasing concentration of economic benefits in the hands of a few.
This is rubbish.

If I ensure my income outweighs my expeses them I am doing OK. It doesn't matter is some guy goes on to accumulate 1 billion dollars.

(29-09-2016 04:25 PM)tomilay Wrote:  Tax cuts for the rich are just splurged on yachts and that kind of thing - creating a handful of menial jobs.
Really?

(29-09-2016 04:25 PM)tomilay Wrote:  There are other falsehoods such as the unfounded claim that welfare leads to negative outcomes - namely dependency. What data and controls do you have to support that claim besides an anecdote which is the worst form of data?
Can you tell me the logic, how guaranteeing a lifetime supply on money incentivises someone to go out and get a job? How does that one work?


(29-09-2016 04:25 PM)tomilay Wrote:  You've stressed free education as a good start. If affordable education is good, why not an affordable and comfortable home environment while at it? Good nutrition, healthcare?
People get to choose what to eat, if they spend their money on beer and chips rather than on fruit and vegetables, then that is their choice.
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29-09-2016, 05:26 PM
RE: Do or Die
(29-09-2016 04:40 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(29-09-2016 04:25 PM)tomilay Wrote:  You are saying there are opportunities that exceptional immigrants have been able to take advantage of.
I didn't say that at all.
I said there are opportunities for everyone, regardless if you are poor.

...

Ok. And you also used an exceptional example to demonstrate your point. The point I am making? That despite this example, most poor people wont make it out without catching a break.

And you say that they should just apply themselves. And I say that they do and still remain poor. In any case, I am beginning to doubt if you have ever interacted with poor people in real life. I am not talking about the hobo on the street corner but the working poor.

Yours are fine soundbites, but they convey little by way of useful insights to a problem that is only worsening in the US despite continued economic growth. Let's cut to the chase. How did Americans manage to get back to prosperity from the great depression?

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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