Do or Die
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30-09-2016, 01:00 PM
RE: Do or Die
(30-09-2016 01:50 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(30-09-2016 12:38 AM)Stevil Wrote:  I really don't understand what you are talking about with regards to trust.

Yes, you keep making your naivety rather abundantly clear.
I'm happy to admit that I don't know everything.

(30-09-2016 01:50 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(30-09-2016 12:38 AM)Stevil Wrote:  Businesses are there to make profit, they do that and You complain because for some reason you think businesses ought to be a welfare state in their own right.
Such unfettered greed must be checked, and I don't expect them to regulate themselves.
You just keep complaining like a whining bitch.
Businesses are there to make a profit, this is not greed, it is their purpose.
(30-09-2016 01:50 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(30-09-2016 12:38 AM)Stevil Wrote:  I, on the other hand expect businesses to exist in order to make profit. If they do that, then I say "well done"
But at what cost? There is always a cost. You seem to refuse to acknowledge that.
Perhaps we could close down all businesses, or as citizens we could refuse to work for these evil profit making businesses. That would show them.
(30-09-2016 01:50 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(30-09-2016 12:38 AM)Stevil Wrote:  Economically, how do poor countries pay for the infrastructure?

If these countries are going to benefit from industry then they would be wise to create the infrastructure when they have agreement from big companies to set up shop there.
Once again, at what cost? Sure they can build a road to benefit moving their products, but that doesn't guarantee they'll set up a public water treatment plant to create safe drinking water
Is it the business' responsibility to set up public water treatment plant? You have a strange perception on what you think businesses ought to do.
Your winging is about things that YOU thing they ought to do rather than your understanding that they are there to make profits. You seem to think that a goal of making profit is evil. If poor people think that way, then I can see why they are poor. They shy away from work or business because they think it is unethical to make money and resent those that do.
(30-09-2016 01:50 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Once again, you fail to see any possible downside to national exploitation by corporations.
Honestly, if you want to discuss environmental pollution by factories, we could discuss that, it's a different topic. Currently we are talking about the fact that businesses employ people and the fact that business is expensive in many first world countries due to taxes and high wages.
The world is a competitive environment, perhaps USA is in strife because it has out priced itself with regards to producing goods and services. You can bitch and moan all you like. You can plead for higher wages, higher taxes, you can scream that rich, greedy business people should fuck off, and perhaps you will get exactly what you want. Except for jobs, those will go. And your source of income (taxing the rich) that will go to. But at least there will be no more evil greedy profit making businesses.
(30-09-2016 01:50 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(30-09-2016 12:38 AM)Stevil Wrote:  Meanwhile, you complain about low wages in your country, govt raises minimum wage and the corporations seek even further to move their factories off shore.

Because table scraps are better than starving, right?
Such emotive winging. The reality is that USA is out pricing itself in a global world. USA is the past not the future. Now that third world countries are able to compete, their lot will improve while USA declines.
(30-09-2016 01:50 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  If all governments gave enough of a shit to protect their people, then international corporations wouldn't be able to play nations off one another like this. They move to other territories because exploiting the people and the environment is simply cheaper. That is not good.
More winging, "Ifs" are for children. Other countries can compete against US because their wages are much lower, their taxes are much lower, it is a fact of life. US will struggle with this. The development of the third world is to the detriment of US but this is the future of the world market place. Bitch and moan all you want, this is the future.


(30-09-2016 01:50 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  No, I'm just not naive enough to think that corporations, who exist solely for making profits, can be trusted with anything else;
Who is trusting them with anything else? Who? Where is it that your expectations come from?

(30-09-2016 01:50 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  I acknowledge that their drive for profit causes a lot of damage, damage that you either do not know or do not care about. I find that to be terribly intellectually offensive.
Businesses aren't evil, they exist to make profit, in the process they provide goods and services and jobs and taxes.
Sure there can be some down sides and many countries implement laws to address those. If you are going to call them evil and drive them out then that is your reaction, you seem to fail to see any value in them.
(30-09-2016 01:50 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(30-09-2016 12:38 AM)Stevil Wrote:  There is no cost of morality and ethics. Businesses aren't there for morality, its not their place, they are there for profits. I don't understand your expectations.
How many times do I fucking have to say this? It's not that I expect them to do better, it's that I acknowledge that they don't;
You don't just acknowledge that they don't, you bitch and moan about it, like you expect more of them. It would be like me going into bank, coming out and bitching and moaning that they didn't sell ice creams. Why the fuck would I moan about something that they ought not to do anyway?

(30-09-2016 01:50 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(30-09-2016 12:38 AM)Stevil Wrote:  If you are not happy with your job, why don't you quit?

How Libertarian.

If only it were that easy. But few, if any, jobs would pay as well, and most would pay even worse.
OK, so you appreciate your job, you see it as a great way for you to make money.
Good for you.
(30-09-2016 01:50 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(30-09-2016 12:38 AM)Stevil Wrote:  What you are saying makes no business sense whatsoever. That management style would drive a business into bankruptcy.

What makes no sense? That consumer driven economies are driven by consumer demand? Because they are. What happens when the consumers have less and less of their wages left over from covering the cost of living?
When demand goes down then the suppliers struggle, they need to produce less, they downsize and employ less people, they drop retail prices, they seek ways to lower costs.
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30-09-2016, 01:14 PM
RE: Do or Die
(30-09-2016 02:17 AM)morondog Wrote:  You keep talking as if corporations are the messiahs who will save us all with jobs etc, but those same corporations have no allegiance to society,
If you encourage businesses they you have a sustainable source of income. Income for investors and income for workers.

If you don't encourage businesses then where do the jobs come from? Do we instead just sit back and milk the rich? How does that work in the long run?

With regards to the "no allegiance to society" I really don't know what you are getting at. Society has many, many facets. Business supplies income and jobs, skills, goods and services, what more do you want from them?

(30-09-2016 02:17 AM)morondog Wrote:  as you yourself say, they care about profits and profits alone. And often those profits are at the expense of the local population.
At the cost of providing jobs?
(30-09-2016 02:17 AM)morondog Wrote:  Nestle bottles water at a particular location and sells it. A mining company extracts diamonds and sells it. Why *should* they keep all the profits from that?
Why shouldn't they?

(30-09-2016 02:17 AM)morondog Wrote:  At the end of the day a company is just an association of individual humans, what makes their profits so important that it's OK to ignore everyone else?
I don't know what you mean when you say "ignore everyone else"? What do you expect businesses to do over and above, turning a profit?
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30-09-2016, 01:20 PM
RE: Do or Die
(30-09-2016 01:14 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(30-09-2016 02:17 AM)morondog Wrote:  You keep talking as if corporations are the messiahs who will save us all with jobs etc, but those same corporations have no allegiance to society,
If you encourage businesses they you have a sustainable source of income. Income for investors and income for workers.

If you don't encourage businesses then where do the jobs come from? Do we instead just sit back and milk the rich? How does that work in the long run?

With regards to the "no allegiance to society" I really don't know what you are getting at. Society has many, many facets. Business supplies income and jobs, skills, goods and services, what more do you want from them?

(30-09-2016 02:17 AM)morondog Wrote:  as you yourself say, they care about profits and profits alone. And often those profits are at the expense of the local population.
At the cost of providing jobs?
(30-09-2016 02:17 AM)morondog Wrote:  Nestle bottles water at a particular location and sells it. A mining company extracts diamonds and sells it. Why *should* they keep all the profits from that?
Why shouldn't they?

(30-09-2016 02:17 AM)morondog Wrote:  At the end of the day a company is just an association of individual humans, what makes their profits so important that it's OK to ignore everyone else?
I don't know what you mean when you say "ignore everyone else"? What do you expect businesses to do over and above, turning a profit?

A business exists for whatever purpose the owners choose. That may or may not be maximum profit or even only profit.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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30-09-2016, 01:39 PM
RE: Do or Die
(30-09-2016 01:20 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(30-09-2016 01:14 PM)Stevil Wrote:  If you encourage businesses they you have a sustainable source of income. Income for investors and income for workers.

If you don't encourage businesses then where do the jobs come from? Do we instead just sit back and milk the rich? How does that work in the long run?

With regards to the "no allegiance to society" I really don't know what you are getting at. Society has many, many facets. Business supplies income and jobs, skills, goods and services, what more do you want from them?

At the cost of providing jobs?
Why shouldn't they?

I don't know what you mean when you say "ignore everyone else"? What do you expect businesses to do over and above, turning a profit?

A business exists for whatever purpose the owners choose. That may or may not be maximum profit or even only profit.

Sure.

There is a category of businesses called Non-profit organisations, the rest are generally there to make income for the owners/investors. How that can be deemed as evil is beyond me.
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30-09-2016, 01:58 PM
RE: Do or Die
(30-09-2016 01:39 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(30-09-2016 01:20 PM)Chas Wrote:  A business exists for whatever purpose the owners choose. That may or may not be maximum profit or even only profit.

Sure.

There is a category of businesses called Non-profit organisations, the rest are generally there to make income for the owners/investors.

I know of many for-profit companies, typically privately held, that do not attempt to maximize profit at the expense of other values.

And look at companies that donate to charity; they are clearly not maximizing profit.

Quote:How that can be deemed as evil is beyond me.

I'm not deeming it evil. Short-sighted, maybe.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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30-09-2016, 01:58 PM (This post was last modified: 30-09-2016 02:02 PM by epronovost.)
RE: Do or Die
(30-09-2016 01:39 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Sure.

There is a category of businesses called Non-profit organisations, the rest are generally there to make income for the owners/investors. How that can be deemed as evil is beyond me.

Its not making a profit that is deemed evil (or wrong, shortsighted, or however you want to call it). Its how that profit is generated and used that is subject to an ethical judgement. We live in a "amoral" socio-economical system. By this, I mean that there is very little cause effect between the morality of an individual or a corporation/business and its financial and political position in society. You can be a complete asshole and be in a very privilege position and you can be nice person and eating shit all your life. The same thing goes for corporation and business. In a primitive, survivalist society, morality and socio-economical position were going hand in hand. This isn't the case anymore since, now, human can live and prosper off the work of individuals they will never live with, see, know or communicate with. For example, I wear clothes that provide me with dignity (and warmth) made and produced using the skills of people living in a different country, half a world away of which I know nothing.

Freedom is servitude to justice and intellectual honesty.
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30-09-2016, 02:10 PM
RE: Do or Die
(30-09-2016 01:14 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(30-09-2016 02:17 AM)morondog Wrote:  You keep talking as if corporations are the messiahs who will save us all with jobs etc, but those same corporations have no allegiance to society,
If you encourage businesses they you have a sustainable source of income. Income for investors and income for workers.

If you don't encourage businesses then where do the jobs come from? Do we instead just sit back and milk the rich? How does that work in the long run?

With regards to the "no allegiance to society" I really don't know what you are getting at. Society has many, many facets. Business supplies income and jobs, skills, goods and services, what more do you want from them?

(30-09-2016 02:17 AM)morondog Wrote:  as you yourself say, they care about profits and profits alone. And often those profits are at the expense of the local population.
At the cost of providing jobs?
(30-09-2016 02:17 AM)morondog Wrote:  Nestle bottles water at a particular location and sells it. A mining company extracts diamonds and sells it. Why *should* they keep all the profits from that?
Why shouldn't they?

(30-09-2016 02:17 AM)morondog Wrote:  At the end of the day a company is just an association of individual humans, what makes their profits so important that it's OK to ignore everyone else?
I don't know what you mean when you say "ignore everyone else"? What do you expect businesses to do over and above, turning a profit?

A few things to get out of way.

Nobody here has suggested

-3) we don't know the profit motive of businesses
-2) there is a virtue in not working
-1) that there is anything wrong with profit
0) that there is anything wrong with businesses

A lot of what you are saying is common knowledge. Everyone knows that.

The question is about how much contribution those at the top of the food chain in a society should make. The impression I am getting from you is that they should make as little as they can away with.

In general, I think an entity that relies on any market to generate profits should owe a certain amount to the polity whose job it is to maintain the standards and conducive environment of life in their primary market that make that business possible in the first place. They should not be able to profit from a market while contributing to its erosion. It's ultimately non-sustaining.

If they are unwilling to make their fair contribution as determined by the community, there should be penalties that favor local rivals who are willing to invest locally. If mom and pop stores understand and live by this simple rule, the big players have no reason expect special treatment.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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30-09-2016, 02:42 PM (This post was last modified: 30-09-2016 02:47 PM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Do or Die
(30-09-2016 01:00 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(30-09-2016 01:50 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Such unfettered greed must be checked, and I don't expect them to regulate themselves.
You just keep complaining like a whining bitch.
Businesses are there to make a profit, this is not greed, it is their purpose.

Bitch? I'm not the one bending over and singing "please sir, fuck me some more".


(30-09-2016 01:00 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(30-09-2016 01:50 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  But at what cost? There is always a cost. You seem to refuse to acknowledge that.
Perhaps we could close down all businesses, or as citizens we could refuse to work for these evil profit making businesses. That would show them.

The point is the cost, and what people are comfortable with accepting. You've been nothing but blindly oblivious to any attempt to address that, even now.


(30-09-2016 01:00 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(30-09-2016 01:50 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Once again, at what cost? Sure they can build a road to benefit moving their products, but that doesn't guarantee they'll set up a public water treatment plant to create safe drinking water
Is it the business' responsibility to set up public water treatment plant? You have a strange perception on what you think businesses ought to do.
Your winging is about things that YOU thing they ought to do rather than your understanding that they are there to make profits. You seem to think that a goal of making profit is evil. If poor people think that way, then I can see why they are poor. They shy away from work or business because they think it is unethical to make money and resent those that do.

You stupid motherfucker. For the umpteenth time, it's not that I expect them to do what's right, I'm just not blind to the obvious harm their negligence causes. Having no regards for the harm caused in their seeking of profits is pretty fucking evil, and purposely ignoring it is pretty fucking despicable. You fall into the later category.


(30-09-2016 01:00 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(30-09-2016 01:50 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Once again, you fail to see any possible downside to national exploitation by corporations.
Honestly, if you want to discuss environmental pollution by factories, we could discuss that, it's a different topic. Currently we are talking about the fact that businesses employ people and the fact that business is expensive in many first world countries due to taxes and high wages.

Taxes; used to pay for the infrastructure the corporations uses to conduct business, the military that protects them, the police and emergency services that serve them, the education of their workforce, to make a not at all exhaustive list.

Plus, their taxes are negligible. General Electric, one of the largest manufactures and defense contractors in the world, has often paid nothing in taxes or been the beneficiary of tax refunds from the United States. Any bellyaching about how taxation is too restrictive is a load of bullshit sold to credulous fools by those who benefit from such credulity. Congrats, your beliefs on tax policy are as sound as the average Christian's belief in the divinity of Jesus. Bravo.


(30-09-2016 01:00 PM)Stevil Wrote:  The world is a competitive environment, perhaps USA is in strife because it has out priced itself with regards to producing goods and services. You can bitch and moan all you like. You can plead for higher wages, higher taxes, you can scream that rich, greedy business people should fuck off, and perhaps you will get exactly what you want. Except for jobs, those will go. And your source of income (taxing the rich) that will go to. But at least there will be no more evil greedy profit making businesses.

The rich leaving would makes little to no difference, because they already don't get taxed for shit. That's kinda the whole fucking point you ignoramus.


(30-09-2016 01:00 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(30-09-2016 01:50 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Because table scraps are better than starving, right?
Such emotive winging. The reality is that USA is out pricing itself in a global world. USA is the past not the future. Now that third world countries are able to compete, their lot will improve while USA declines.


For the second time now, I'm going to assume you meant 'whining'. Facepalm

The Third World is not competing, they're being exploited. Enforce the same minimum safety standards and environmental protections, and they lose most of their competitive advantages; because those advantages are built through exploitation, pure and simple.


(30-09-2016 01:00 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(30-09-2016 01:50 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  If all governments gave enough of a shit to protect their people, then international corporations wouldn't be able to play nations off one another like this. They move to other territories because exploiting the people and the environment is simply cheaper. That is not good.
More winging, "Ifs" are for children. Other countries can compete against US because their wages are much lower, their taxes are much lower, it is a fact of life. US will struggle with this. The development of the third world is to the detriment of US but this is the future of the world market place. Bitch and moan all you want, this is the future.

Again, it's 'whining' dipshit.

The problem is, the world cannot afford the rest of the third world having their own industrial revolutions. China already dumps an incredible amount of greenhouse gasses into the atmosphere, making combating climate change an ever increasing uphill struggle.

If this is the future, we're dooming ourselves and our descendant to burn, all in the name of stock prices in the here and now. How the fuck can anybody with an ounce of foresight be complacent with that?


(30-09-2016 01:00 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(30-09-2016 01:50 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  No, I'm just not naive enough to think that corporations, who exist solely for making profits, can be trusted with anything else;
Who is trusting them with anything else? Who? Where is it that your expectations come from?

For the umpteenth time, I have none you stupid fuck, that's the point. How many times must I repeat myself? I have zero expectation that they'll do the responsible thing, and so they need to be counteracted to safeguard everyone else from them. You consistently ignore all of the harm they have, do, and will cause because so long as they're making a buck, you don't give a shit. Hooray for your complete lack of empathy I guess.


(30-09-2016 01:00 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(30-09-2016 01:50 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  I acknowledge that their drive for profit causes a lot of damage, damage that you either do not know or do not care about. I find that to be terribly intellectually offensive.
Businesses aren't evil, they exist to make profit, in the process they provide goods and services and jobs and taxes.
Sure there can be some down sides and many countries implement laws to address those. If you are going to call them evil and drive them out then that is your reaction, you seem to fail to see any value in them.

How is causing intentional harm for financial gain anything but evil? What fucking definition of evil do you use? Shocking


(30-09-2016 01:00 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(30-09-2016 01:50 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  How many times do I fucking have to say this? It's not that I expect them to do better, it's that I acknowledge that they don't;
You don't just acknowledge that they don't, you bitch and moan about it, like you expect more of them. It would be like me going into bank, coming out and bitching and moaning that they didn't sell ice creams. Why the fuck would I moan about something that they ought not to do anyway?

It's more so that I'm utterly flabbergasted at your 'so long as they're making money, they're being a good business, fuck everyone else' attitude.


(30-09-2016 01:00 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(30-09-2016 01:50 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  How Libertarian.

If only it were that easy. But few, if any, jobs would pay as well, and most would pay even worse.
OK, so you appreciate your job, you see it as a great way for you to make money.
Good for you.

'Great' is most certainly not the adjective I'd ever use to describe my job or my employers.


(30-09-2016 01:00 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(30-09-2016 01:50 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  What makes no sense? That consumer driven economies are driven by consumer demand? Because they are. What happens when the consumers have less and less of their wages left over from covering the cost of living?
When demand goes down then the suppliers struggle, they need to produce less, they downsize and employ less people, they drop retail prices, they seek ways to lower costs.

Do you have any fucking idea how the Great Depression worked? When the speculation bubble burst and the bottom fell out of the market, it wiped out the banks, which wiped out the savings of the common citizen. This froze capital, with business unable to get the money they needed to do business, and in turn were unable to pay their employees, who then didn't have money, who then couldn't buy anything, so there was no demand in the economy. The economy froze, like a stalled engine.

So how do corporations typically downsize? They lay off employees. Those people now don't have the income to put money back into the economy. So there is less demand, which puts a negative pressure on other suppliers, who may follow suit. Get enough of that happening together, and it can cause a feedback loop, turning into a Great Recession or worse; and that's bad for everyone.

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30-09-2016, 03:02 PM
RE: Do or Die
(30-09-2016 02:42 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(30-09-2016 01:00 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Such emotive winging. ...

For the second time now, I'm going to assume you meant 'whining'. Facepalm

He probably meant "whinging", which is an actual word -- he just misspelled it. People in England and other (non-US) English-speaking countries often use "whinging" where we would use "whining".

http://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2007/0...whine.html
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30-09-2016, 04:06 PM
RE: Do or Die
(30-09-2016 03:02 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(30-09-2016 02:42 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  For the second time now, I'm going to assume you meant 'whining'. Facepalm

He probably meant "whinging", which is an actual word -- he just misspelled it. People in England and other (non-US) English-speaking countries often use "whinging" where we would use "whining".

http://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2007/0...whine.html
Yeah, well, US is an exception, they have bastardised the English language.
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