Do or Die
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01-10-2016, 12:23 AM
RE: Do or Die
(30-09-2016 11:52 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(30-09-2016 08:34 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  No problems with international corporations exploiting developing nations for their own profit at the expense of the environment and public safety. But if a nation exercises some modicum of pressure on their trade? That's somehow beyond the pale. Facepalm
Companies setting up factories and offices in developing nations provides jobs, skills and well needed infrastructure for them. They are very fortunate to have those companies there.

But as always, at what cost? It's not all sunshine, rainbows, and lollipops. It comes with increased pollution, the destruction of the environment, and the endangerment of the population. Because unless they're trying to exploit those things to their advantage, there are few reasons to move to a less regulated location. Is a new road worth being poisoned with industrial sewage?

I think those people deserve a minimum level of protection and accountability, I don't think they should allow corporations to run roughshod over them. Knowingly causing needless harm in the name of economic profit, how is that not explicitly evil again? Consider


(30-09-2016 11:52 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Americans pointing at other nations and telling them that they don't like the country's policies and practices and then resorting to trade embargoes, tariffs etc, is just sanctimonious arrogance and really just a large economic power using these as excuses to get out of free trade in a ploy to protect its own economy.

What? The guy who has no issues with corporations fucking over everyone else, because seeking profits is what they do, and so long as they're good at that then fuck everyone else? The thought that a government might exert it's power to protect it's own economic interest, or those of it's citizens (you know, what they're theoretically supposed to do), is once again somehow beyond the pale?

Can you even the fucking tell the difference between upside down and right-side up? Hobo


(30-09-2016 11:52 PM)Stevil Wrote:  In the process, US makes many enemies. You don't have to look far to find enemies of the US.

Obama was actually quite good at respecting other nations, Trump will be terrible. If US don't get with the programme they will be left behind.

Sure he was respectful. All that unilateral use of drone strikes on other nation's sovereign territory without their permission was nothing but respectful. Yes indeed. Facepalm

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01-10-2016, 02:06 AM
RE: Do or Die
(01-10-2016 12:23 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  The thought that a government might exert it's power to protect it's own economic interest, or those of it's citizens (you know, what they're theoretically supposed to do), is once again somehow beyond the pale?
I'm not talking from your fairytale morality perspective. I'm talking about making of enemies.
You try to westernise the world, then they will push back.


(01-10-2016 12:23 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Sure he was respectful. All that unilateral use of drone strikes on other nation's sovereign territory without their permission was nothing but respectful. Yes indeed. Facepalm
US is a warmonger country, have been for a very long time, you have many, many enemies. You have dug a very big hole for yourselves. Your governments have been taking military action abroad for a very long time, you trade in weapons and you torture people. This is the bed you live in, Obama has inherited that bed.
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01-10-2016, 02:35 AM
RE: Do or Die
Stevil, I notice you still haven't answered the questions I've laid.
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01-10-2016, 02:50 AM (This post was last modified: 01-10-2016 02:55 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Do or Die
(01-10-2016 02:06 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(01-10-2016 12:23 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  The thought that a government might exert it's power to protect it's own economic interest, or those of it's citizens (you know, what they're theoretically supposed to do), is once again somehow beyond the pale?
I'm not talking from your fairytale morality perspective. I'm talking about making of enemies.
You try to westernise the world, then they will push back.

You missed the point entirely. I was mocking your utter hypocrisy of respecting the 'nature' of corporations, in spite of the harm they cause. But somehow the 'nature' of a government doing what's best for it's people is offensive? That is your bridge too far? Dodgy


(01-10-2016 02:06 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(01-10-2016 12:23 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Sure he was respectful. All that unilateral use of drone strikes on other nation's sovereign territory without their permission was nothing but respectful. Yes indeed. Facepalm
US is a warmonger country, have been for a very long time, you have many, many enemies. You have dug a very big hole for yourselves. Your governments have been taking military action abroad for a very long time, you trade in weapons and you torture people. This is the bed you live in, Obama has inherited that bed.

Once again, missing the point entirely. I was pointing out the inanity of you attempting to highlight Obama's respectability in light of his actual actions. Facepalm


Oh, and you still haven't answered what your definition of evil is. Or what you would call intentionally causing needless harm for personal gain. Drinking Beverage

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01-10-2016, 09:57 AM
RE: Do or Die
(30-09-2016 11:52 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(30-09-2016 08:34 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  No problems with international corporations exploiting developing nations for their own profit at the expense of the environment and public safety. But if a nation exercises some modicum of pressure on their trade? That's somehow beyond the pale. Facepalm
Companies setting up factories and offices in developing nations provides jobs, skills and well needed infrastructure for them. They are very fortunate to have those companies there.

Not if those companies are despoiling the environment and/or abusing their workers.

Quote:Americans pointing at other nations and telling them that they don't like the country's policies and practices and then resorting to trade embargoes, tariffs etc, is just sanctimonious arrogance and really just a large economic power using these as excuses to get out of free trade in a ploy to protect its own economy.

Pollution is international. Human rights are universal. Your worship of business is typical libertarian inanity.

Quote:In the process, US makes many enemies. You don't have to look far to find enemies of the US.

Obama was actually quite good at respecting other nations, Trump will be terrible. If US don't get with the programme they will be left behind.

What programme?

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01-10-2016, 09:59 AM
RE: Do or Die
(30-09-2016 05:59 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(30-09-2016 05:09 PM)Chas Wrote:  Or we can ban imports from nations that allow businesses that don't meet minimum standards for health and safety.

And we should.
Them polluting their own country is their business.

Are you really this dim-witted? Pollution does not stay in one place.

Quote:It does give an "unfair" advantage to their business though, so I suppose you could include tarrifs rather than outright ban.

No, the crimes are egregious, so is the penalty.

Quote:There certainly is an issue with countries using bans and tarrifs, it isn't free trade and it is forcing your own way on others. Trying to westernise other countries. It is one of the reasons why the western world is hated by the rest of the world.

Why do you worship free trade?

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01-10-2016, 11:00 AM
RE: Do or Die
(30-09-2016 11:52 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(30-09-2016 08:34 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  No problems with international corporations exploiting developing nations for their own profit at the expense of the environment and public safety. But if a nation exercises some modicum of pressure on their trade? That's somehow beyond the pale. Facepalm
Companies setting up factories and offices in developing nations provides jobs, skills and well needed infrastructure for them. They are very fortunate to have those companies there.

Americans pointing at other nations and telling them that they don't like the country's policies and practices and then resorting to trade embargoes, tariffs etc, is just sanctimonious arrogance and really just a large economic power using these as excuses to get out of free trade in a ploy to protect its own economy.

In the process, US makes many enemies. You don't have to look far to find enemies of the US.

Obama was actually quite good at respecting other nations, Trump will be terrible. If US don't get with the programme they will be left behind.

As far as I can tell, the US has not issued any trade embargoes against any major nation. If anything, they have progressively ceded their own market to foreign or US companies operating from abroad. Do you have evidence to the contrary perhaps?

Who are these enemies? Is this yet another one of those statements that should be believed because you said it?

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01-10-2016, 11:36 AM
RE: Do or Die
(30-09-2016 11:52 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(30-09-2016 08:34 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  No problems with international corporations exploiting developing nations for their own profit at the expense of the environment and public safety. But if a nation exercises some modicum of pressure on their trade? That's somehow beyond the pale. Facepalm
Companies setting up factories and offices in developing nations provides jobs, skills and well needed infrastructure for them. They are very fortunate to have those companies there.

Lets have a look at how fortunate Equador is/was having Texaco and Chevron in the rainforest drilling oil.
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I bet these guys are a helluva happy about all the infrastructure they have, and how awesome their job is in trying to take care of entire lakes of spilled oil.
64 mio liters of spilled oil, 71mio liters of oily remains in the course of 20 years. Oil being directed into the Amazonas river, directly, unfiltered. Telling the indigenuous people that the poisonous water will strenghten them. Cancer and rates of other diseases exploding. I bet everybody is having a ball down there still. All hail Chevron!
Well, looks like The Hague had a different point of view. Chevron was sentenced to a 10bio fine. Chevrons sales are 200bio each year. They invest 250mio each year alone to fight the Equadorian government and refuse to accept the fine posed on them for destroying the rain forest.
After 30 years of extracting oil in Equador, still 80% of the equadorian population are living in poverty. Most probably they are soooo thankful to Chevron, because without Chevron they would be much poorer even, right? It is estimated that Chevron destroyed ca. 1mio hektar of rain forest (10.000km^2, 4.000mi^2) worth 700bio in exchange for extracting oil for ca. 20bio.
Jesus. F. Christ, can you imagine what would have happened if someone not so careful as Chevron would have been extracting oil instead? I bet Equador is still sending x-mas presents each year to the Chevron board of directors.

One has to really be deluded not wanting to see how unchecked business will neclect everything and destroy anything (if necessary) as long as you can make a buck out of it.

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01-10-2016, 12:17 PM
RE: Do or Die
(01-10-2016 02:50 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Oh, and you still haven't answered what your definition of evil is. Or what you would call intentionally causing needless harm for personal gain. Drinking Beverage
WTF, we are talking about the best economic solution, whether to support businesses and drive a sustaining economy or to make it difficult for businesses by driving up costs, milking the "rich" and giving their money away to those who don't work.

What does "evil" have to do with this? Your the idiot talking about "evil", come up with your own definition.
And the concept of "intentionally causing needless harm for personal gain" and the idea that all businesses are doing this is YOURs. I have no interest in that.
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01-10-2016, 12:22 PM
RE: Do or Die
(01-10-2016 11:00 AM)tomilay Wrote:  As far as I can tell, the US has not issued any trade embargoes against any major nation. If anything, they have progressively ceded their own market to foreign or US companies operating from abroad. Do you have evidence to the contrary perhaps?
Oh, really, you think US is free international trade, they don't do trade embargoes and don't put on tarrifs? OK.


(01-10-2016 11:00 AM)tomilay Wrote:  Who are these enemies? Is this yet another one of those statements that should be believed because you said it?
Aha, I must have been mistaken, everyone loves USA. Of course they do, what's not to love. I just made that stuff up. No need to worry. The world is a happy place. Americans are loved. You guys have friends everywhere. In fact everyone wants to have USA as their friend, actually, everyone wants to be an American. Wow, you guys are sooooo loved. It's amazing, I just can't find the words to describe how much everyone loves America.
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