Do or Die
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02-10-2016, 01:09 AM
RE: Do or Die
(01-10-2016 11:58 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(01-10-2016 10:18 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  It's not "milking" the rich to give money to those who don't work, it's about having them pair their fair share.
Oh, ok, if you say so.

I do. The largest and most profitable corporations shouldn't be getting tax refunds.


(01-10-2016 11:58 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(01-10-2016 10:18 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  and a large part of that stems from stagnant wages, their increasing tax burden, and underfunded social services and an eroding infrastructure.
You put wages up, then businesses shut down or go off shore, you are pricing yourself out of the global market place.

"underfunded social services" isn't the problem, it is the amount of people going on the social services. It happens because businesses are closing down, going off shore and not starting up or growing in sufficient numbers to provide demand for labour. If you have higher demand for labour then wages will go up naturally, if you raise them artificially then businesses shut down.
It also happens because many people get used to getting money for nothing, they have no incentive to work.

Once again, the American work force is MORE PRODUCTIVE PER MAN-HOUR and WORKS MORE HOURS than any of our contemporary developed nations, including your own New Zealand. In comparison to us, you're the lazy bumpkins. And yet, despite your country averaging far more time off, and less productive use of the time you do work, you still somehow manage both better wages and more robust social services. Your government is doing it's job and protecting it's citizens, preventing you and your environment from being exploited, in addition to making sure the wealthiest participants in your economy pay their share. Funnily enough, those corporations didn't flee New Zealand like the black plague, because it's still worth it to do business in your country; even if they're forced to be responsible while they go about it.

We should all be so lucky, asshole.


(01-10-2016 11:58 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(01-10-2016 10:18 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  There's a difference between supporting a business, and letting them strip-mine your nation and citizenry.
This seems to be a thing with you. A very negative perception of businesses.

And one not made without example after example, a perception borne out of an honest appraisal of the context; a context you continuously do your best to ignore.


(01-10-2016 11:58 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(01-10-2016 10:18 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  So often all that accommodating corporations boils down to it "who is stupid enough to let themselves be exploited the most".
Again, a very negative perception. Businesses create value, they bring money into the country, they create jobs, they create goods and services.

AT WHAT COST?

That is always the question. It is the one I cannot ignore. It is the one you are doing your best to bury.


(01-10-2016 11:58 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(01-10-2016 10:18 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  the world's ecosystem needs better than that,
If you are worried about the environment, then great, try to do something about it, perhaps vote for environmental policies, perhaps invent cleaner and greener technology.

Neither here nor there. You're just dodging the point, that the world's environment cannot afford the burden that unfettered capitalism places upon it; even if they build a new road or two.


(01-10-2016 11:58 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(01-10-2016 10:18 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Everything has a cost. What I find so utterly arresting with you is your total obliviousness to it.
Our discussion has been about whether govt ought to support the commerce of the country by supporting businesses or by giving money away to the poor. I still don't see, if your approach is that they should give it away, where the money comes from, and how that goes towards creating jobs and skills etc, how does that work?

Seems you are just interested in bitching and moaning about corporations and rich people.

Once again, simple answers for simple minds.

That the reality if the situation is far more complex that you want to engage in is telling. There are more options than just laissez-faire or total communism. Facepalm


(01-10-2016 11:58 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(01-10-2016 10:18 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  I did. Causing intentional and needless harm for personal gain. It's not an all encompassing definition of evil, but I think the label is rather apt descriptor for such callous and premeditated behavior. You seemed to take umbrage with my labeling the actions of corporations as such, but you failed to ever do more than flail your arms and squawk.
I have no interest in talking about "evil" theology, or in labelling people or businesses as "evil" that's your pet project, I have no interest in it.

Then why did you object in the first place? If you have no dog in the fight, stay out of the arena! For fuck's sake...


(01-10-2016 11:58 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(01-10-2016 10:18 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  So I asked you to supply a definition, or otherwise back up your objection to my classifying, once again, the intentional causing of needless harm for personal gain as 'evil'.
My objection is that I have no interest in this overly emotive label, it has no place in this discussion.

Yes, it does. Their actions have consequences, good and bad, no matter how hard you try to ignore them.


(01-10-2016 11:58 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(01-10-2016 10:18 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Not all businesses are, that's why I used the word "corporations", denoting specifically those business who answer to shareholders and the incessant desire for profits and competing in the stock market. We both acknowledge that corporations have no pretext to moral accountability. I recognize that this is a problem
I'd rather the term "morality" be removed from language and use, its time we all grew up and gave up on such childish ideas.

Ethics is dead. Facepalm


(01-10-2016 11:58 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(01-10-2016 10:18 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  that unfettered greed with no ethical obligation inevitably leads to exploitation,
Businesses aren't inherently greedy. They take an investment (capital) and look to turn a profit, there is nothing greedy or evil about that.

In a vacuum, sure. But we're not operating in a hypothetical vacuum; we live in the real world, where corporate motivations and actions have real consequences.


(01-10-2016 11:58 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(01-10-2016 10:18 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  if left unchecked.
No one is arguing for removal of all laws. If you think we need environmental protection laws then vote for them, implement them as a constraint of doing business. But, bear in mind, with this global world, if you make things too expensive in your own country then you lose the industry to other countries, you lose the income, the jobs, the taxes. It is a fact of life.

It's not an 'either - or' proposition! Facepalm

Apple just got caught evading taxes in the EU. They did this through creative corporate paperwork and lucrative loopholes in Ireland's laws. Apple shortchanged the EU to the bill of 14.6 billion Euros. Create a few new headquarters on paper, get a few understaffed offices for show, and you too can hide billions you'd otherwise have to pay than if you accurately paid your dues in the markets where you actually did the majority of your business. Now, is the EU getting Apple to pay those back taxes going to make Apple stop doing business with the EU? No. Because the EU are the gatekeepers to their markets, and if Apple wants to continue doing business within the EU, they're going to have to play ball.

Their illegal deal with the Irish government allowed them to get away with paying 50 Euros for every million Euros in profits. Apple was, simply put, not paying it's fare share. Now, are they going to go under because of these owed taxes? No, Apple is sitting atop a cash reserve in excess of 230 billion Euros. They can more than afford to pay the taxes they owed.

Now, what does Apple's shortchange of the EU 14.6 billion Euros do? It's good for Apple's stock, and it screws over the citizens of the EU. That 14.6 billion Euro short fall meant that some combination of 14.6 billion Euros had to be accounted for through either budget cuts or increased taxes for everyone else. By shirking their responsibility, and not paying a fair share that they could more than afford to, they fucked everyone else over for their benefit (which I'd call evil, but you refuse to acknowledge as anything but on the level). That's bullshit, and kudos to the EU for taking Apple to task for it.

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02-10-2016, 02:05 AM
RE: Do or Die
Quote:Businesses aren't inherently greedy. They take an investment (capital) and look to turn a profit, there is nothing greedy or evil about that.

Definition of greed(y) according to Merriam Webster.
Quote:having or showing a selfish desire to have more of something (such as money or food) : having greed

very eager to have something
You seem to be operating under the wrong assumption that everyone who objects you is thinking that business = greed = evil. All some people are trying to tell you that business = greed. Business is ignoring the possible result of causing unnecessary harm out of greed however. Causing unnecessary harm equals evil, and businesses are thus responsible for evil, not because they (inherently) are evil (some strawman you seem to be putting up against your opponents here), but because the dont care about comitting evil deeds or not, hence my example of Equador. I think even you admitted it by saying that all they are driven by is the desire to make profit. Trying to make profit is greed! Why do you agree with this basic proposition of some people but still are trying as hard as you can to disagree with the broader implications? I think its cognitive dissonance. For some reason you have made yourself believe that -regarding economy and business- all you need to believe is: "free market is no bad". Yet you cannot deny that businesses are causing evil every day. Thats why you are trying to disconnect the issue of making money completely from the issue of doing evil things for increased profit, because your house of libertarian cards would crumble. If we allow business to operate under no or little control (or taxation for that matter. Tax is also used to mitigate the damage done to the environmenet by the corps), or lets better say: without a certain framework, then the result is going to be careless and unnecessary comitting of harm to people and environment.
"free trade", its simple, but as some people are trying to explain to you, reality is not that simple.

Now time for you to show us businesses that are not eager to have money, or that dont show the selfish desire to have more money.

Im not saying greed is inherently bad, it is what it is: The desire to have more. We all like to have more of at least some things. But i also think you need to get back in touch with reality. Greed ist the one thing driving business.

By the way: where i live there also were way less regulations regarding businesses. As a result the Rine river was biologically amost dead in its complete length by the late 80s. Almost no fish were left and we were told regulary via the media no to go swimming because of the pollution done by chemical corporations from Switzerland and Germany and potassium mining on the french side. It was known for years, but the corps ignored that fact, because all they cared for was profit. It took the governemnts of France, Switzerland and Germany to put up harsh regulations of what can be dumped into the Rhine and what not. Guess what: The corps adapted, put up with new and more efficient tech, and now you can go swimming as well as fishing again in the Rhine and the corps are making more money too.
What we have seen here i think was "economic evolution" and not the intrusion of evil government into innocent corps businesses.

And now im gonna have more food for lunch. Big Grin

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02-10-2016, 02:15 AM
RE: Do or Die
Quote:No one is arguing for removal of all laws. If you think we need environmental protection laws then vote for them, implement them as a constraint of doing business. But, bear in mind, with this global world, if you make things too expensive in your own country then you lose the industry to other countries, you lose the income, the jobs, the taxes. It is a fact of life.

This sounds to me like the christian threat of hellfire!

Some corps made you think that by having laws for protection of environment, you put yourself in the danger of forcing those corps to go elsewehre, right? So you have no job then and hav eot starve. Its not the corps fault, no, you made them do it, like we make god throw us into hellfire if we dont obey. Please let that sink in a bit if you can.

Its is but a fact of life too, that just as many corps are doing just fine with the regulation we put up for them and stay in our countries where they can benefit from a stable and well regulated framework under which they can operate, a fact which has been explained to you already but which you seem to prefer to ignore. You seem to be blind on one eye most of the time, if i may say.

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02-10-2016, 02:19 AM
RE: Do or Die
(02-10-2016 02:05 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  You seem to be operating under the wrong assumption that everyone who objects you is thinking that business = greed = evil. All some people are trying to tell you that business = greed.
Greed is a negative word, it is always used in that context.

Making profit isn't greed. Making more profit isn't greedy.
The purpose of a business, of an investment is to make profit. Nothing greedy about that.


(02-10-2016 02:05 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Causing unnecessary harm equals evil
I don't know where this rubbish comes from. Who is it that is determining that businesses are causing unnecessary harm?

(02-10-2016 02:05 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  , and businesses are thus responsible for evil, not because they (inherently) are evil (some strawman you seem to be putting up against your opponents here), but because the dont care about comitting evil deeds or not
Really, this is a stretch.

(02-10-2016 02:05 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Yet you cannot deny that businesses are causing evil every day.

Is that my position? Really?

(02-10-2016 02:05 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Now time for you to show us businesses that are not eager to have money, or that dont show the selfish desire to have more money.
Why would I want to show you that. What point would that work to?

(02-10-2016 02:05 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Im not saying greed is inherently bad, it is what it is: The desire to have more. We all like to have more of at least some things. But i also think you need to get back in touch with reality. Greed ist the one thing driving business.
No its not. Businesses aren't greedy. It is the purpose of business to turn a profit.
You are trying to make the word "greedy" to be meaningless.
People tend to think of greed as wanting to have more than is necessary, to be a glutton.
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02-10-2016, 02:28 AM
RE: Do or Die
(02-10-2016 01:09 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(01-10-2016 11:58 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Our discussion has been about whether govt ought to support the commerce of the country by supporting businesses or by giving money away to the poor. I still don't see, if your approach is that they should give it away, where the money comes from, and how that goes towards creating jobs and skills etc, how does that work?

Seems you are just interested in bitching and moaning about corporations and rich people.

Once again, simple answers for simple minds.

That the reality if the situation is far more complex that you want to engage in is telling. There are more options than just laissez-faire or total communism.
And you still don't offer an explanation on how making costs higher for businesses (by raising minimum wage) and just taxing (milking) the rich, provides a launchpad for more jobs and higher skills and incentive for people to come off social welfare and into the workforce.

I just don't get how your system can work.
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02-10-2016, 02:31 AM
RE: Do or Die
(02-10-2016 02:19 AM)Stevil Wrote:  People tend to think of greed as wanting to have more than is necessary, to be a glutton.

And you continue to ignore that this is precisely what those who run many corporations are guilty of.

Making profits at the expense of the environment and of people's health, safety, and well-being is the very meaning of greed.

You are so blinded by simplistic libertarian cant, you can't see what's right in front of you.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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02-10-2016, 02:36 AM
RE: Do or Die
Anyone else getting Wall Street flashbacks?

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02-10-2016, 02:43 AM (This post was last modified: 02-10-2016 03:17 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Do or Die
(02-10-2016 02:28 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(02-10-2016 01:09 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Once again, simple answers for simple minds.

That the reality if the situation is far more complex that you want to engage in is telling. There are more options than just laissez-faire or total communism.
And you still don't offer an explanation on how making costs higher for businesses (by raising minimum wage) and just taxing (milking) the rich, provides a launchpad for more jobs and higher skills and incentive for people to come off social welfare and into the workforce.

I just don't get how your system can work.

It already works that way in your own fucking country! A more balanced equilibrium doesn't instantly destroy the market! Facepalm

Seriously, your willful ignorance is exacerbating.


But because you're too oblivious to have caught the explanation the last time I gave it, here it is again. Raising wages means that the workers in the economy will have more to spend in the economy. The working poor that you conveniently ignore? Then spend their entire pay making ends meet. If their wages went up, the extra wages wouldn't go into savings or the stock market or otherwise be squirreled away, that extra income would almost all be instantly spent and go right back into the economy thus generating more demand. When demand goes up, companies produce more, and to do that they hire more people as their business expands.

Give a million dollar tax break to Bill Gates, will he spend a million more dollars on clothing and food? No. If that million dollars instead gets spread out among the workforce? Yeah, that's a million dollars more going into buying food and clothes, generating a million dollars worth of more demand in the economy. Bill Gates only needs so many pants, and can only eat so much food.

The rising tide lifts all ships.

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02-10-2016, 03:28 AM
RE: Do or Die
(02-10-2016 02:19 AM)Stevil Wrote:  Making profit isn't greed. Making more profit isn't greedy.

When it's done at the expense of the health and well-being of others, it sure is.

I want a Lear jet; great. I fund it by running a company that gives 12,000 people lung cancer through toxic emissions from my factories? Not so great.

Hopefully you can see the point.
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02-10-2016, 03:31 AM
RE: Do or Die
(02-10-2016 02:36 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Anyone else getting Wall Street flashbacks?

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Dude, that's so yesterday, I almost cited Boesky in a reply.
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