Do or Die
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04-10-2016, 02:11 PM
RE: Do or Die
(04-10-2016 01:23 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  On another note, the thought crossed my mind as I read this thread that the assumption is being made that given equal opportunity everyone would be as successful.
I think you are making the assumption that I think everyone should be successful.

If people choose not to make the most of the opportunities then I don't see why they shouldn't fail. It's their choice. It's about personal accountability. You live in the bed that you make for yourself. There is only so much that govt can do.

There are also some cultures that regularly fail. I don't think it is govt place to interfere in those cultures. Those people need to look at themselves and fix their attitude and fix their home environment. IF people from other cultures, with same economic backgroud are succeeding (getting good grades) then what is the reason they aren't. Perhaps they need to take a look in the mirror rather that cry about being underprivileged.
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04-10-2016, 02:14 PM
RE: Do or Die
(04-10-2016 01:23 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  Equal opportunity does not equate to equal levels of success. Intelligence, support, drive, willingness to take risks, personality traits and luck all play into the equation.
Yes, and that is what I am saying. Not everyone will or should be equal. There is a level of personal accountability.

I support "equal" opportunity, rather than equality.
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04-10-2016, 02:53 PM
RE: Do or Die
(04-10-2016 02:05 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Of course you are still going to get pockets of privilege, rich folks sending their kids to expensive private schools for example. But what can you do about that? Can you outlaw private schools? I mean, if a parent has money and wants to pay for the best teachers and the best school resources, should we stop them from being able to do that?

If we go back to talking about resources. Let's have R amount of resources that the society as a whole possesses. Now we want to distribute these resources in society of population P. How shall we do this?

One way is to say that through inheritance or hard work, a person can take as many of those R resources as they can. If they fail to do so or if someone stronger comes and takes away their share, then they're simply too lazy and deserve to have nothing.

The net result is you end up with a small fraction W (wealthy) of the P people controlling all of the resources, or very nearly all. They share some of "their" resources with the other P-W people in exchange for those people working to increase their wealth. These people we say are "successful" and "hard working", even though at the end of the day it's mostly *other* people contributing to their wealth.

Another way is to say that everyone must have complete equality. There is no incentive to work since everyone gets R / P regardless.

For me the answer is somewhere between the extremes. I can see that people get rich by hard work, and I can see that other people get rich by not doing much at all. I don't see anything that makes those people better than the people poorer than them, other than a substantial amount of luck. I refuse to accept your assertion that the difference between riches and poverty is hard work. I know plenty of people who work extremely hard and are not rich. I consider it a gross insult to blithely claim that these people deserve to be poor.

The end result society that I would like to see would be one where the wealth/resources are shared somewhat unequally but where there's a much more even distribution. There's no tiny group of obscenely rich people, but hard work and good luck can make you better off.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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04-10-2016, 03:16 PM
RE: Do or Die
(04-10-2016 02:53 PM)morondog Wrote:  For me the answer is somewhere between the extremes.
Yes, I agree, some sort of balance.
For me, we are to have free schools and free healthcare because this provides opportunity.

Which is a start.
We also support businesses because this creates jobs
We also support people without jobs, because we want to get them into jobs and hence independent.

If you don't look for some sort of balance, eventually you are going to have a revolt on your hands, when people are desperate they take to desperate matters, crime is one thing, and in large numbers you get a violent revolt.

In China the people killed successful people, killed landlords etc, they removed educated from jobs (e.g. doctors and nurses) and replaced them with poor students and farmers. I guess the poor were desperate and looked to those with success with disdain, saw them as greedy capitalists.

(04-10-2016 02:53 PM)morondog Wrote:  I refuse to accept your assertion that the difference between riches and poverty is hard work.
I'm not saying that all poor people are lazy, and I'm not saying that all rich people work hard and are deserving.
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04-10-2016, 03:22 PM
RE: Do or Die
(04-10-2016 02:05 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(04-10-2016 04:06 AM)morondog Wrote:  What I was trying to draw attention to was how there's an enormous wealth difference created even though a. the rich people aren't working hard b. the poor people are working their butts off.
Sure, and what I am trying to point out is that there is opportunity (in some countries) for the poor to become well off.

In no country at any time ever has the opportunity for the poor to become well off anywhere near equal to that of someone born in better circumstances.

The chronically poor (most humans in history) suffer from developmental shortcomings and diseases from the get-go not faced to nearly the same degree as the well-off. Their childhood environment is typically far less supportive, there are fewer resources.

The opportunities, try as one might, are simply not equal.

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04-10-2016, 04:06 PM
RE: Do or Die
(04-10-2016 03:22 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(04-10-2016 02:05 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Sure, and what I am trying to point out is that there is opportunity (in some countries) for the poor to become well off.

In no country at any time ever has the opportunity for the poor to become well off anywhere near equal to that of someone born in better circumstances.

The chronically poor (most humans in history) suffer from developmental shortcomings and diseases from the get-go not faced to nearly the same degree as the well-off. Their childhood environment is typically far less supportive, there are fewer resources.

The opportunities, try as one might, are simply not equal.
Not saying that they are exactly equal. If your family is less supportive, take no interest in your education, don't take you to the local library, then you have an issue in the home. Not much the govt can do about that.

I wouldn't say that poor people are necessarily disease ridden. But hey,

Money sure does open doors...

But if you don't have money, there are doors available to you to, if your country provides free quality schooling. Just cant do much if you have shitty parents.
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04-10-2016, 04:40 PM
RE: Do or Die
(04-10-2016 02:11 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(04-10-2016 01:23 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  On another note, the thought crossed my mind as I read this thread that the assumption is being made that given equal opportunity everyone would be as successful.
I think you are making the assumption that I think everyone should be successful.

No, not you. I agree with nearly everything you have said so far.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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04-10-2016, 04:50 PM
RE: Do or Die
“...70 percent of those who show up on Forbes’ 2014 list created their own wealth. Nearly three out of every four billionaires, then, are self-made entrepreneurs and innovators, far from being born with a silver spoon in their mouths.”

http://www.forbes.com/sites/greatspecula...718f437b28

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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04-10-2016, 04:53 PM (This post was last modified: 04-10-2016 05:33 PM by Chas.)
RE: Do or Die
(04-10-2016 04:06 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(04-10-2016 03:22 PM)Chas Wrote:  In no country at any time ever has the opportunity for the poor to become well off anywhere near equal to that of someone born in better circumstances.

The chronically poor (most humans in history) suffer from developmental shortcomings and diseases from the get-go not faced to nearly the same degree as the well-off. Their childhood environment is typically far less supportive, there are fewer resources.

The opportunities, try as one might, are simply not equal.
Not saying that they are exactly equal. If your family is less supportive, take no interest in your education, don't take you to the local library, then you have an issue in the home. Not much the govt can do about that.

I wouldn't say that poor people are necessarily disease ridden. But hey,

Money sure does open doors...

But if you don't have money, there are doors available to you to, if your country provides free quality schooling. Just cant do much if you have shitty parents.

I didn't mean to imply the poor were disease-ridden, simply their health is statistically poorer.

Interested, supportive parents who provide an environment that promotes learning are, I believe, the most important factor for future success and happiness.

A house with no books, a family with no library card, a TV never tuned to PBS are not the way to help children succeed.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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04-10-2016, 05:04 PM
RE: Do or Die
(04-10-2016 04:53 PM)Chas Wrote:  Interested, supportive parents who provide an environment that promotes learning are, I believe, the most important factor for future success and happiness.

A house with no books, a family with no library card, a TV never tuned to PBS are not they way to help children succeed.
Yes, agreed. Giving money to these parents doesn't necessarily solve this problem. It most likely wouldn't help at all.

I'm not really sure what govt can do in order to educate or promote parents into a more productive parenting style.
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