Do or Die
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06-10-2016, 06:55 PM
RE: Do or Die
(06-10-2016 01:34 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(06-10-2016 12:52 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Let's take a look at an "evil" coorporative NZ company.

Fonterra

Well hey they're doing a good job, I guess we'll just take our eyes off the whole goddamn lot of them since they can clearly be trusted not to fuck things up.
I don't where that sarcastic comment has come from Morondog. Why did you say that? Are you trying to imply something about my position?
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06-10-2016, 07:48 PM
RE: Do or Die
(06-10-2016 03:13 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(06-10-2016 01:38 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Giving money away doesn't solve the core problem.

The poor need a means to get qualifications, they perhaps need help in getting back in the game towards looking for a job.
It is very hard to sell yourself on the job market. It can be soul destroying, especially if you feel down about yourself.

Money doesn't do that for you. Money is impersonal, it is something cold, it isn't supportive, it isn't encouraging, it doesn't build confidence or motivation. It doesn't change bad parents into good parents, money doesn't teach parenting skills.

Education. Education. Education.
Yeah, but how can a government educate people into a more productive and success conducive parenting style?

You can't force parents to go back to school, you can't force them to go into parenting school (is there such a thing?).

I can see with my young kids (5 and 7) they are getting homework with messages to the mums and dads to read to the kids, to help them with some projects etc. The schools are actively trying to get the parents to participate. Which is great, but still, if a parent has "better things to do" then they just won't pay much attention to the messages from the schools.

I've had some chats with teachers, they say that in the first year (5 year olds) they see some kids coming in that know their ABC's and basic addition already, and other kids which have basically spent the first 5 years of their lives playing in the sandpit.
Some parents are of the impression that education of the kids is the school's responsibility, and not the parents. IMO it is both the school and the parents' responsibility. Actually more so on the parents.
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07-10-2016, 12:07 AM
RE: Do or Die
(06-10-2016 03:13 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(06-10-2016 01:38 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Giving money away doesn't solve the core problem.

The poor need a means to get qualifications, they perhaps need help in getting back in the game towards looking for a job.
It is very hard to sell yourself on the job market. It can be soul destroying, especially if you feel down about yourself.

Money doesn't do that for you. Money is impersonal, it is something cold, it isn't supportive, it isn't encouraging, it doesn't build confidence or motivation. It doesn't change bad parents into good parents, money doesn't teach parenting skills.

Education. Education. Education.

Pshaw, there you go wanting the government to invest in the country. What's next, cats and dogs sleeping together?!
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07-10-2016, 12:20 AM (This post was last modified: 07-10-2016 12:58 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Do or Die
(06-10-2016 07:48 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(06-10-2016 03:13 PM)Dom Wrote:  Education. Education. Education.
Yeah, but how can a government educate people into a more productive and success conducive parenting style?

You can't force parents to go back to school, you can't force them to go into parenting school (is there such a thing?).

Kinda makes you questions the sanity of a world that requires licensing for operating businesses or vehicles, but any fuckwit can procreate.


(06-10-2016 07:48 PM)Stevil Wrote:  I can see with my young kids (5 and 7) they are getting homework with messages to the mums and dads to read to the kids, to help them with some projects etc. The schools are actively trying to get the parents to participate. Which is great, but still, if a parent has "better things to do" then they just won't pay much attention to the messages from the schools.

Well, when parents have to work more and more to make ends meet, they have less time for their kids. Maybe if the state stepped in and had the uber-rich people and businesses pair their fair share of the tax burden, or ensured a reasonable living wage, the parents would have more time to spend with their kids instead of working. Just a thought. Drinking Beverage


(06-10-2016 07:48 PM)Stevil Wrote:  I've had some chats with teachers, they say that in the first year (5 year olds) they see some kids coming in that know their ABC's and basic addition already, and other kids which have basically spent the first 5 years of their lives playing in the sandpit.
Some parents are of the impression that education of the kids is the school's responsibility, and not the parents. IMO it is both the school and the parents' responsibility. Actually more so on the parents.

My mother didn't have the time to coddle me at home, because she worked full time while going to night school. She was doing what you wanted, getting an education and increasing her skill; but that came at the cost of time with me and my brother. Even here, this was only possible because we moved in with her mother, so grandma could help shoulder that burden. If we hadn't had that option, we'd have been even worse off than a single mother with two kids already on WIC and struggling, let alone trying to go to school to be a nurse. There are only so many hours in the day Stevil. We cannot be time consuming parents and perpetual students while also working full time and sleeping.

I'd love if more parents could spend more time with their kids. Unfortunately it's often the case that they simply cannot afford to, and I do mean that literally.

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07-10-2016, 12:22 AM
RE: Do or Die
(06-10-2016 06:55 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(06-10-2016 01:34 PM)morondog Wrote:  Well hey they're doing a good job, I guess we'll just take our eyes off the whole goddamn lot of them since they can clearly be trusted not to fuck things up.
I don't where that sarcastic comment has come from Morondog. Why did you say that? Are you trying to imply something about my position?

You provided one example of a corporation doing good, for what reason I cannot fathom (ETA: I can't fathom why you provided the example, not why they might do some good in the world). You're the one who's been arguing a pro-corporate hands-off approach. I assume you intended us to acknowledge that corporations are all wonderful and therefore can be trusted e.g. not to make a fucken mess of the environment.

If this isn't what you intended, why don't you explain what message you intended us to take from your post?

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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07-10-2016, 12:45 AM
RE: Do or Die
(06-10-2016 07:48 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Some parents are of the impression that education of the kids is the school's responsibility, and not the parents. IMO it is both the school and the parents' responsibility. Actually more so on the parents.

This I agree with. The most important teachers in a child's life are the parents.
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07-10-2016, 02:03 AM
RE: Do or Die
(07-10-2016 12:22 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(06-10-2016 06:55 PM)Stevil Wrote:  I don't where that sarcastic comment has come from Morondog. Why did you say that? Are you trying to imply something about my position?

You provided one example of a corporation doing good, for what reason I cannot fathom (ETA: I can't fathom why you provided the example, not why they might do some good in the world). You're the one who's been arguing a pro-corporate hands-off approach. I assume you intended us to acknowledge that corporations are all wonderful and therefore can be trusted e.g. not to make a fucken mess of the environment.

If this isn't what you intended, why don't you explain what message you intended us to take from your post?
The discussion had moved onto the need for children to have good nutrition and how that may impact their ability to perform academically.

I don't think that giving money to the parents necessarily results in food going to the kids. I brought up the example because I have done some work for Fonterra and I happen to know that this business makes sure that kids get nutrition (despite the parents), not by donating cold hard cash but by providing milk and cereal (with their partnership with Sanatarium).
So, it's an example of a very large business doing a better job than the government could. Doing more, than giving away money. It also shows, that painting all businesses as evil, as being utter non-sense. Probably in direct opposition of some of the things that EvolutionKills (which Thumpalumpacus and morondog and others seem to be giving out frequent likes to). I can't fathom how so much hatred is shown by people on this forum towards businesses and, in general, success.
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07-10-2016, 02:11 AM
RE: Do or Die
(07-10-2016 02:03 AM)Stevil Wrote:  Probably in direct opposition of some of the things that EvolutionKills (which Thumpalumpacus and morondog and others seem to be giving out frequent likes to). I can't fathom how so much hatred is shown by people on this forum towards businesses and, in general, success.

For fuck's sake...

Are you trying to be purposely obtuse and ignorant? Because that's how you're coming off.

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07-10-2016, 02:24 AM
RE: Do or Die
(07-10-2016 02:03 AM)Stevil Wrote:  The discussion had moved onto the need for children to have good nutrition and how that may impact their ability to perform academically.
Part of a wider discussion of why you think adjusting tax rates on the rich will result in the end of the world and why you think people shouldn't receive "handouts".

Quote:I don't think that giving money to the parents necessarily results in food going to the kids. I brought up the example because I have done some work for Fonterra and I happen to know that this business makes sure that kids get nutrition (despite the parents), not by donating cold hard cash but by providing milk and cereal (with their partnership with Sanatarium).
And that's a good thing. I know of several businesses here in SA that do similar things.

Quote:So, it's an example of a very large business doing a better job than the government could. Doing more, than giving away money. It also shows, that painting all businesses as evil, as being utter non-sense. Probably in direct opposition of some of the things that EvolutionKills (which Thumpalumpacus and morondog and others seem to be giving out frequent likes to). I can't fathom how so much hatred is shown by people on this forum towards businesses and, in general, success.
I dispute that that's a better job than the government could. What's to stop the government doing the exact same scheme, except for people like you screaming that they're wasting "your" taxes?

Businesses (some businesses) do implement such schemes, that's true, but they have a choice as to whether to do that. Government has a *mandate* to rule for the benefit of the people. I'd say that the fact that such schemes are run by business rather than the government is an indictment of your government as much as a wonderful example of businesses being nice.

And do please go fuck yourself with your bullshit claims that I hate business or success. I happen to work for a small business and I know full well and see up close the challenges that such businesses face.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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07-10-2016, 04:22 AM
RE: Do or Die
(07-10-2016 02:03 AM)Stevil Wrote:  It also shows, that painting all businesses as evil, as being utter non-sense. Probably in direct opposition of some of the things that EvolutionKills (which Thumpalumpacus and morondog and others seem to be giving out frequent likes to). I can't fathom how so much hatred is shown by people on this forum towards businesses and, in general, success.

I don't hate business, nor do I think of it as evil. I simply understand how it is amoral, and find your reasoning (that if we leave businesses alone they'll do the right thing for the benefit of all) to be hopelessly naive. Counting on the profit motive to pull businesses in the right direction socially is not borne out by the facts of history.
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