Do or Die
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11-10-2016, 02:06 AM
RE: Do or Die
(11-10-2016 02:01 AM)Stevil Wrote:  Fuckin stupid conclusion, but, hey whatever.

That's just like, your opinion, man.

Everyone here accepts that morals are imaginary constructs I think. Just not everyone thinks that that implies that they're not *useful*. You have morals, regardless that they are subjective, in the same way so do I. You have things that revolt you about other people's behaviour. Sure there's no *rational* reason.

Why should anyone care about anyone else? I'm alright. What concern is it of mine that someone else isn't?

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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11-10-2016, 02:08 AM
RE: Do or Die
(11-10-2016 01:42 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  It's more like you're only concerned that builders construct buildings, while everyone else is worried about the damage they might do to the environment or the native inhabitants in the process.
The context of the conversation is with regards to supporting businesses (which creates jobs) vs heavy taxes and raising minimum wage (which increases costs for businesses)

My question is, how do we create jobs by increasing costs for businesses.

I'm interested here in job creation.
Whether businesses are creating pollution or not is an entirely different topic. a.k.a. not relevant to the concern about where jobs are coming from.
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11-10-2016, 02:11 AM (This post was last modified: 11-10-2016 02:14 AM by Stevil.)
RE: Do or Die
(11-10-2016 02:06 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(11-10-2016 02:01 AM)Stevil Wrote:  Fuckin stupid conclusion, but, hey whatever.

That's just like, your opinion, man.

Everyone here accepts that morals are imaginary constructs I think. Just not everyone thinks that that implies that they're not *useful*. You have morals, regardless that they are subjective, in the same way so do I. You have things that revolt you about other people's behaviour. Sure there's no *rational* reason.

Why should anyone care about anyone else? I'm alright. What concern is it of mine that someone else isn't?
You can insist that I have morals all you like, but it doesn't make it true.
I do not accept that anything is morally wrong or morally right.

It's like insisting that an atheist believes in god, even though they keep telling you that they don't.

What I do accept is that everyone has a different situation and different opinion and that we often compete, especially since resources are finite. We cannot go around making everyone happy, that is living in la la dream land. We are under no moral obligation to please others.
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11-10-2016, 02:38 AM
RE: Do or Die
(11-10-2016 02:11 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(11-10-2016 02:06 AM)morondog Wrote:  That's just like, your opinion, man.

Everyone here accepts that morals are imaginary constructs I think. Just not everyone thinks that that implies that they're not *useful*. You have morals, regardless that they are subjective, in the same way so do I. You have things that revolt you about other people's behaviour. Sure there's no *rational* reason.

Why should anyone care about anyone else? I'm alright. What concern is it of mine that someone else isn't?
You can insist that I have morals all you like, but it doesn't make it true.
I do not accept that anything is morally wrong or morally right.

No more so do I, but I just term right and wrong and morals as shorthand for my preferences. I assume you prefer that people are not murdered in your society? Therefore that preference I label a moral. When you codify that moral into law it becomes no longer a statement of right and wrong but more a statement of consequences.

We can flap our gums about whether or not you have morals some more if you like.

Regarding "living in lala dreamland" I think I prefer my version of dreamland to yours.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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11-10-2016, 02:40 AM
RE: Do or Die
PS: Did you see this reply to you?

(10-10-2016 04:15 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(10-10-2016 02:18 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Well, I'd like to discuss how left wing policies can lead to a prospering economy, that is something that I am struggling with understanding.
I am not an economist, so... not sure if I can help you there. Ultimately it's about production of goods and services, my problem is if we go full unfettered capitalist then the benefits of those goods and services tend to be available to a few rich people, a small middle class and pretty much no one else. So the idea is to spread the love, to still *have* lots of goods and services, and business, just not to deify it. And to rather care about the prosperity of the people in general, not just the economy which is supposed to serve the people, not the other way round.

Quote:I think I have already offered my right wing view that supporting and encouraging businesses to operate locally creates competition (hence quality and affordable goods and services) and jobs. But I have also moderated that by agreeing that environmental protection is required and so is free education and health and perhaps work schemes or schemes to support the poor while they take active steps to get back into the workforce. I don't think I can anything more to than, other than to keep clarifing my position when people mistakenly come up with claims that my position is that businesses should be left to their own devises, shouldn't be taxed and that will result in "good" for the citizens.
See, this is somewhat tangential but I'm a bit ambivalent about "workforce". If our purpose in life is to work e.g. in some fucken factory, then shoot me now. I think sure, work is important and so on, but let's recognise that it's not a natural state for a human chimpanzee. Work is good, but worker happiness and comfort is also important - not something that is found in many low wage jobs.

Free education and healthcare is something that is not in existence where I am. If you're rich enough, you can go to the doctor. Ditto for school. It's a cause of extreme discontent. But yeah, if possible, free education and healthcare and indeed work schemes are all great ideas that I can fully support.

To that I would add school feeding schemes and some form of welfare. Welfare to take care of people who are unable to work for some reason e.g. sickness, old age etc, and to tide people over who can't find a job immediately.

Quote:I'm thinking more in terms of economics and stability.

A society is doing well when business is thriving and unemployment is low, when there is opportunity for all independent of race and wealth. When racial tension is low and even when political tension is low. When a high level of people are seeking education and where there are lots of jobs for the qualified, where the country isn't steeped in debt and trade deficit. When the country has few enemies but lots of alliances.
Well, yeah, those are good things... I think we are not in disagreement too much. Just that for me business interests are not as important as people interests. As with the example I gave of Botswana, a straightforward capitalist take on it was just that everyone there remained poor while contributing to the already massive riches of a small elite. Now with a profit sharing agreement with the mines the wealth is spread more evenly, and yet business is still booming. The economy is in fantastic shape and all of the conditions that you list are ticked. I think even education and healthcare are sorted (very rare in Southern Africa).

The one thing I will say is that I'm rather skeptical of the government here. They're a shower of idiots, not to put too fine a point on it, and to give them more money will likely just result in more Swiss bank accounts. That's the sole reason I wouldn't advocate for doing something similar here in SA.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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11-10-2016, 07:07 AM
RE: Do or Die
(11-10-2016 02:01 AM)Stevil Wrote:  You are saying that I can't have empathy if I don't have a belief in moral rights, wrongs and obligations. Where is the logic in that thinking?

I think you seem periliously close to the condition where you don't have empathy and you justify it by appealing to your lack of belief in morals.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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11-10-2016, 07:24 AM
RE: Do or Die
(11-10-2016 07:07 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(11-10-2016 02:01 AM)Stevil Wrote:  You are saying that I can't have empathy if I don't have a belief in moral rights, wrongs and obligations. Where is the logic in that thinking?

I think you seem periliously close to the condition where you don't have empathy and you justify it by appealing to your lack of belief in morals.

Empathy consumes a lot of energy.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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11-10-2016, 07:35 AM
RE: Do or Die
(11-10-2016 02:08 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(11-10-2016 01:42 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  It's more like you're only concerned that builders construct buildings, while everyone else is worried about the damage they might do to the environment or the native inhabitants in the process.
The context of the conversation is with regards to supporting businesses (which creates jobs) vs heavy taxes and raising minimum wage (which increases costs for businesses)

Clearly, it is not. Like I already said, you appear to be upset that we're getting grey into your black and white.


(11-10-2016 02:08 AM)Stevil Wrote:  My question is, how do we create jobs by increasing costs for businesses.

By increasing demand. If you bleed the consumer base dry by trying to appease the corporation's desire for cheaper labor, then you're necessarily shrinking your own market by limiting the purchasing power of the consumers (because, you know, their wages are stagnant while the cost of living rises).

This has been brought up more than once. Your question is a weak deflection


(11-10-2016 02:08 AM)Stevil Wrote:  I'm interested here in job creation.
Whether businesses are creating pollution or not is an entirely different topic. a.k.a. not relevant to the concern about where jobs are coming from.

Right, once again, you're insisting we all ignore the ethical components of decisions rife with ethical implications. These decisions, actions, and policies affect the lives of people; that imbues them with an inherently ethical component, whether you acknowledge it or not. Everyone else here seems to be of the opinion that such considerations are very important, while you alone are trying to ignore them.

Why are you so dead set on sidestepping the topic?

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11-10-2016, 07:52 AM
RE: Do or Die
(10-10-2016 07:23 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(10-10-2016 03:50 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Chas is perfectly capable of speaking for himself, but I think the basic point is that laws are not arbitrary. Societies make laws because they believe that someone would be harmed in the absence of those laws. Whether or not you like it, societies have morals, and the laws of the society reflect those morals. We don't make laws just for the fun of making laws. They exist for a reason, and in spite of all your denials, that reason is morality.
Laws can be created outside the context of moral beliefs, they can be created for practical reasons, for reasons of perceived consequences, sustainability and stability for example rather than what is believed to be right or wrong.

I strongly disagree with your conclusion. "Perceived consequences" include harm. A society makes laws because it perceives that someone or something will be harmed in the absence of those laws. "Right or wrong" is absolutely relevant here. Any lawmaker or law enforcer will unequivocally agree that breaking a law is wrong.
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11-10-2016, 08:06 AM
RE: Do or Die
(10-10-2016 11:10 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(27-09-2016 10:38 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Yeah, I lived in Iran for four years and was stationed in Saudi for a short tour as well. My experiences don't comport with yours.

What plane was it you had to punch out of? When did this happen?

... still wonderin' ...

He may not be reading this thread anymore. Go to the Personal Issues and Support forum, and check the thread entitled "Here Goes..." -- your question is answered in detail there.
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