Do or Die

[morondog]

(28-09-2016 02:14 AM)The Dark One Wrote:  

Quote:Things like medical care for all, education for all etc - socialist policies - are so terrible?

Of course not- it's the way they want to pay for them that is ridiculous. Expecting the rich to pay for it is punishing people for succeeding...before long they'll either decide it's not worth it to work so hard, only to have it taken from them...or they'll lie and hide money...or they'll move to a country that doesn't steal their hard earned income. Then who pays for all of this free stuff?

I believe its more about sharing equitably. There are precedents - NHS in UK, socialised medicine in Canada. It can work.

It's also about principles, from my point of view. It's not right that some in society are so fucked they can't ever hope to change their circumstances, and at the same time others are obscenely wealthy. Is it so wrong to ask the rich to share?

[DLJ]

(27-09-2016 11:40 PM)morondog Wrote:  

(27-09-2016 04:29 PM)The Dark One Wrote:  I agree with all of this- and in the rest of the world, I would be much closer to liberal than conservative. But in the US, the line between socialism and liberalism has been blurred. I DESPISE socialists.

Things like medical care for all, education for all etc - socialist policies - are so terrible?

Indeed, cheaper medicine! How can anyone possibly afford that?

And personally, I'd take socialised armed services over private armies any day.

[ViolexTV]

I wouldn't exactly say all top 1%ers really worked hard for all their money. I don't think a sweeping statement like that can really apply.

I mean also lets be real, it's not really about punishing people for succeeding. Especially since many people inherit fortunes. It's about paying a fair share.

Smaller business owners and stuff definitely don't need to have taxes piled on them. But folks who reel in millions upon millions for little work, and do very little with their money to invest in causes, charity, or doing good, for sure deserve to be taxed heavilly and proportionally, imo.

I believe that basic things like healthcare should be the right of everyone, and I believe that it should be provided by the government through taxation. But hey, I live in Canada. That's normal here, and so far it hasn't been disastrous. A flawed system, with problems that happen of course, but you don't have to shell out hundreds for checkups or thousands for more. I personally wouldn't have it the other way.

[Chas]

(27-09-2016 02:32 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  

(27-09-2016 01:40 PM)Chas Wrote:  Their silence gives tacit approval to the fundamentalists.

Even if the fundamentalists would kill them if they weren't silent? Maybe their silence is just evidence of their desire to stay alive. Dissent of any kind is not safe in some Islamic nations. Maybe they just want to get the hell out of there and start over somewhere where things aren't so crazy -- like here. I don't see that as tacit approval of anything. They're just escaping a bad situation.

I am referring to the ones who have emigrated.

[Chas]

(27-09-2016 02:54 PM)tomilay Wrote:  

(27-09-2016 12:53 PM)Chas Wrote:  I don't expect them to - they've already failed.

Once refugees are settled in a new country, they can try again to clean house. How many do?

I guess you could say the Jews fleeing Germany in the 30s and 40s had failed to fix the mess in Germany. A technically correct if unusual way of looking at it.

I think once they have settled in a new country, they should try and get back on their feet in the new country. Open a new chapter in their lives.

That is not a valid comparison, as the Jews were not dissenting Nazis.

[Chas]

(27-09-2016 03:20 PM)Old Man Marsh Wrote:  

(27-09-2016 12:53 PM)Chas Wrote:  I don't expect them to - they've already failed.

Once refugees are settled in a new country, they can try again to clean house. How many do?

Go find a few and ask them personally.

The point is that I should be able to hear them without having to ask.

[Chas]

(27-09-2016 02:09 PM)OrdoSkeptica Wrote:  

(27-09-2016 01:40 PM)Chas Wrote:  Their silence gives tacit approval to the fundamentalists.

THERE NOT SILENT !!!!!
THEY ARE CLEANING HOUSE!!!!
i have repeated this three times now they are helping. it's the media who never show them doing so because there bread and butter is selling fear. Iv'e said this before of course there condemning terrorism as most victims of victims of terrorism are Muslims do you really think the refugees are like "hey those Isis guys who blew my house up and murdered half my family are awesome i so wanna help them" gt s real

Citations required.

[tomilay]

(27-09-2016 11:34 PM)The Dark One Wrote:  This is the arrogance that I'm talking about- you, and to a lesser degree, tomilay, find it incomprehensible that I could have had experiences in my life that make me feel less than charitable towards a people who have not had peace in their culture, for any length of time, in millennia...Your own life experiences have been so limited or so sheltered that you are incredibly naive about these people, yet you chalk it up completely to my prejudice and bigotry- completely disregarding world events, the experiences in my life, the experiences of others who have spent time in the region, and even of members of this culture who frequently speak out against its harshness, its xenophobia, its religious fanaticism. Everyone has to be making all of this stuff up, because you know those lovely people are big hearted and kind, right? Because...Hillary told you so? I don't know where you get your information- I only know where you do NOT get it.

What I find not incomprehensible but curious is that it took you so many years and travels to arrive at the same conclusion that a garden variety bigot spending too much time at DailyStormer would.

[tomilay]

(28-09-2016 06:06 AM)Chas Wrote:  

(27-09-2016 02:54 PM)tomilay Wrote:  I guess you could say the Jews fleeing Germany in the 30s and 40s had failed to fix the mess in Germany. A technically correct if unusual way of looking at it.

I think once they have settled in a new country, they should try and get back on their feet in the new country. Open a new chapter in their lives.

That is not a valid comparison, as the Jews were not dissenting Nazis.

That is a strawman. The validity of the comparison is predicated on the fact that they are both refugees who have left their countries without fixing the thing that made them flee in the first place.

[Grasshopper]

(28-09-2016 06:04 AM)Chas Wrote:  

(27-09-2016 02:32 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Even if the fundamentalists would kill them if they weren't silent? Maybe their silence is just evidence of their desire to stay alive. Dissent of any kind is not safe in some Islamic nations. Maybe they just want to get the hell out of there and start over somewhere where things aren't so crazy -- like here. I don't see that as tacit approval of anything. They're just escaping a bad situation.

I am referring to the ones who have emigrated.

OK, but maybe trying to build a new life in a foreign country is a full-time job (I know it would be for me), and they don't exactly have the time or energy to get up on a soapbox and tell the world how bad ISIS is (as if the world doesn't already know that).

Using Tomilay's example, I also would not have expected every Jew who left Nazi Germany to publicly denounce the Nazis. It was unnecessary, and they had more pressing concerns.