Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
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06-12-2014, 08:57 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
Look Tear. I'll say your right for the sake of argument:
How is using an evolutionarily shaped wont to not see yourself harmed as a basis for decision making any less of a circular argument than using an evolutionarily shaped wont to not see yourself and others harmed as a basis for decision making?

Soulless mutants of muscle and intent. There are billions of us; hardy, smart and dangerous. Shaped by millions of years of death. We are the definitive alpha predator. We build monsters of fire and stone. We bottled the sun. We nailed our god to a stick.

In man's struggle against the world, bet on the man.
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06-12-2014, 08:57 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
Again, you are using semantics. Empathy = morality. Just because it's arbitrary with you doesn't mean the occasion when it arises doesn't make it moral.

Check out my now-defunct atheism blog. It's just a blog, no ads, no revenue, no gods.
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Atheism promotes critical thinking; theism promotes hypocritical thinking. -- Me
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06-12-2014, 08:59 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(06-12-2014 08:42 PM)tear151 Wrote:  
(06-12-2014 08:34 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  Fine. Let's call it amoral egoism. It's still the same thing with the same results.

It has mostly results yes, but there is a big diffrrence between my explanation that its all egoistic, and insisting its "good". However my views lead to a society with no natural rights or moral duty either.

However I still hold if you saw someone rape a child youd cry monster, imply they are disgusting beasts, I simply dont believe your actualy reactions to things match what you are saying to me.

In real life you almost ceetainly behave in a moral absolutist framework, as do I if.I dont catch myself, its somewhat... Innate to behave that way.

Yes. Big difference in the explanation. Still the same result. I don't believe in moral absolutes, i simply call a spade a spade, no matter how you choose to define a shovel.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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06-12-2014, 08:59 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(06-12-2014 08:55 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  
(06-12-2014 08:17 PM)tear151 Wrote:  If that happened the situation would no longer be profitable, so I wouldnt do it. Strange how your axiom murder is bad breaks down when someone comes along who breaks the contract... Ironically that reaction is exactly what is to be expected without morals, I accept this.

I mean... I would see my death as unpleasant to me but nothing else, you would cry justice and apparently show joy as the wolverines chewed up my fresh carcus... How... Consistent of you.

I never said I would enjoy watching you die (though I wouldn't shed any tears either Consider "or any other emotion")! But thanks for putting your own words into my mouth; how... consistent... and observant... of you...
I said you shouldn't be surprised when members of the society whose morals you don't follow when they don't suit you, don't go out of their way to keep you alive, or save your life.

Generally I dont see wats warranted any hostility other thsn my ideas being surface level Abhorent. There is similarity in the anger shown toward me in this thread that coming out as an atheist caused in theistic ones, people dont.like their sacred cows questioned.

"A witty quote means nothing"
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06-12-2014, 09:03 PM (This post was last modified: 06-12-2014 09:12 PM by tear151.)
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(06-12-2014 08:59 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(06-12-2014 08:42 PM)tear151 Wrote:  It has mostly results yes, but there is a big diffrrence between my explanation that its all egoistic, and insisting its "good". However my views lead to a society with no natural rights or moral duty either.

However I still hold if you saw someone rape a child youd cry monster, imply they are disgusting beasts, I simply dont believe your actualy reactions to things match what you are saying to me.

In real life you almost ceetainly behave in a moral absolutist framework, as do I if.I dont catch myself, its somewhat... Innate to behave that way.

Yes. Big difference in the explanation. Still the same result. I don't believe in moral absolutes, i simply call a spade a spade, no matter how you choose to define a shovel.

If I believed gravity was the whim of space penguins, I could use what you just said to justify it. Fundamental forces, space penguins... Same result right? Well no, ockams razor.

(50 post limit reached, cant reply until tommorow, crappy phone is to.blame for spelling errors)

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06-12-2014, 09:10 PM (This post was last modified: 06-12-2014 09:26 PM by TheGulegon.)
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(06-12-2014 08:59 PM)tear151 Wrote:  
(06-12-2014 08:55 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  I never said I would enjoy watching you die (though I wouldn't shed any tears either Consider "or any other emotion")! But thanks for putting your own words into my mouth; how... consistent... and observant... of you...
I said you shouldn't be surprised when members of the society whose morals you don't follow when they don't suit you, don't go out of their way to keep you alive, or save your life.

Generally I dont see wats warranted any.hostility other thsn my ideas being surface level Abhorent.

You mean other than you twisting my words in order to imply I would enjoy watching you (or anyone else) die horribly? Enjoyment of other's pain (or even employing it, without pleasure, for personal gain), and complete indifference to whatever might happen to an asshole who brought whatever that may be on him/herself, are 2 very different things!
Wats thsn?

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06-12-2014, 09:14 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(06-12-2014 09:03 PM)tear151 Wrote:  If I believed gravity was the whim of space penguins, I could use what you just said to justify it. Fundamental forces, space penguins... Same result right? Well no, ockams razor.

Don't do that. You've gone and thought yourself into a corner. It is not becoming, and it gets you nowhere.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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06-12-2014, 10:29 PM (This post was last modified: 06-12-2014 10:49 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(06-12-2014 06:29 PM)tear151 Wrote:  By literature I mean the general zeitgeist portrayed in stuff in the god delusion, god is not great, matt dillahunty lectures... Etc. Its a general "feeling", a "recurring theme", my brain doesnt have an indexing service that precise.

Thanks for demonstrating you can't back up your claims.

(06-12-2014 06:29 PM)tear151 Wrote:  Ironically your final statenent is what I live by, but again, personal benefit, no.morals needed, there is no difference between thought and deep thought, its simply expressing the ammount of time ive spent on this.

It's not ironic at all. YOU tried to introduce yourself and your irrational thread by making a claim you now reject, by attempting to give weight to your crap by using the term "deep thought", and now you say YOUR OWN words have no meaning. So you are a liar then.

You are dismissed.

(BTW, ever hear of capitalization and a spell checker ?)

If you "live by" some standard, then YOU have an ethic, even if that standard is your own pleasure maximization. You just contradicted yourself. You are not "amoral" in any way. You have a standard of behavior.

Explain to us what you mean by "will", where that is, and the evidence for that is that drives you.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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06-12-2014, 11:34 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
There are some things I could morally dismiss, but my ethics get in the way. Big Grin
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06-12-2014, 11:40 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
Morality is subjective, and is only as meaningful as the people who buy into it make it meaningful, making it dependent upon a certain amount of consensus.

This is why a person who supports gender equality finds themselves in the moral minority in Saudi Arabia. Now you can argue against their misogynistic assholery from any number of different angles, but unless you can get the majority of Saudi's to agree with you and enact change based upon a new consensus, then you simply find yourself at the short end of the stick. Neither one of you are objectively right or wrong. While one may be objectively more moral or immoral according to one scale or metric, those scales and metrics are still built upon subjective valuation. There is nothing we've learned about the nature of the universe to suggest that if sentient life didn't exist, that 'morality' would have any meaning whatsoever; a universe full of rocks would be neither moral or immoral, nor would either of those concepts have any meaning or relevance.

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