Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
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07-12-2014, 08:05 AM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(06-12-2014 07:27 PM)tear151 Wrote:  
(06-12-2014 07:21 PM)Chas Wrote:  No, it is a result of negotiation with the rest of society. Morality is about how we treat others.

In that case my "morality" is "Treat those who are useful to you in ways that maximise their resourcefulness to you", but I don't think you'd allow me to call that moral.

Allow you? If that is your morality, so be it. Just don't be surprised at the negative consequences.

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07-12-2014, 08:06 AM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(07-12-2014 07:54 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(06-12-2014 08:59 PM)tear151 Wrote:  Generally I dont see wats warranted any hostility other thsn my ideas being surface level Abhorent. There is similarity in the anger shown toward me in this thread that coming out as an atheist caused in theistic ones, people dont.like their sacred cows questioned.

No. Your ideas are not "surface level abhorrent". They're just stupid. No one here has any "sacred cows".

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07-12-2014, 08:19 AM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
^Oh yes. The nipple clamp hormone.

Soulless mutants of muscle and intent. There are billions of us; hardy, smart and dangerous. Shaped by millions of years of death. We are the definitive alpha predator. We build monsters of fire and stone. We bottled the sun. We nailed our god to a stick.

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07-12-2014, 08:38 AM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(06-12-2014 08:59 PM)tear151 Wrote:  
(06-12-2014 08:55 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  I never said I would enjoy watching you die (though I wouldn't shed any tears either Consider "or any other emotion")! But thanks for putting your own words into my mouth; how... consistent... and observant... of you...
I said you shouldn't be surprised when members of the society whose morals you don't follow when they don't suit you, don't go out of their way to keep you alive, or save your life.

Generally I dont see wats warranted any hostility other thsn my ideas being surface level Abhorent. There is similarity in the anger shown toward me in this thread that coming out as an atheist caused in theistic ones, people dont.like their sacred cows questioned.

This thread is a perfect example of the real life consequences an individual encounters when a community considers them a “threat”.

Normally the threat is grounded in action but in your case it is the expression of your ideas or outlook. You’ve said in so many words that you have no qualm in using or hurting others if it furthers your own goals. You have garnered enmity and distrust by doing so. The community responds defensively, this should not come as a surprise.

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07-12-2014, 08:51 AM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(07-12-2014 08:38 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(06-12-2014 08:59 PM)tear151 Wrote:  Generally I dont see wats warranted any hostility other thsn my ideas being surface level Abhorent. There is similarity in the anger shown toward me in this thread that coming out as an atheist caused in theistic ones, people dont.like their sacred cows questioned.

This thread is a perfect example of the real life consequences an individual encounters when a community considers them a “threat”.

Normally the threat is grounded in action but in your case it is the expression of your ideas or outlook. You’ve said in so many words that you have no qualm in using or hurting others if it furthers your own goals. You have garnered enmity and distrust by doing so. The community responds defensively, this should not come as a surprise.

1. I don't accept what the OP has stated about itself. If the OP were gravely ill, or in need of assistance, it would expect to be treated, (in some cases, WANT to be treated in ways that do not meet what *it* claims are it's moral system). It would want a kidney from a "disinterested" party, if that would save its life. It would want and expect empathetic treatment from care providers if gravely ill.

2. There are known sociopaths that do not share the values of society in general, or what are considered "normal people". That's not a reason to generalize moral questions from one (or a few) exceptional case/cases.

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07-12-2014, 09:21 AM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(07-12-2014 08:19 AM)Stuffed_Assumption_Meringue Wrote:  ^Oh yes. The nipple clamp hormone.

Also the moral molecule.



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07-12-2014, 02:24 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(07-12-2014 04:03 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(07-12-2014 03:40 AM)undergroundp Wrote:  Because our morals are based on empathy, and we can't simply control our empathy, it's instinctive.

Now what were you exactly trying to argue for in this thread?

As a side note, empathy can be molded. People can increase their empathy, usually through greater education and understanding. Likewise your empathy can be destroyed or curtailed, such as with in-group-out-group thinking. This can be rather easily abused by those in positions of authority (religious figures, political figures, family, etc.) to mold other people's behavior to their advantage.

When a military trains you up for war, they need to you to not empathize with the enemy. One has to wonder if this is one of the problems with trying to fight insurgent groups that blend in with a society, as it's not so easy to flip that empathy switch on and off in a way that would be conducive to the operation. You want people who are able to pull the trigger without a second thought in a firefight, but that mentality doesn't make for the best cross culture bridge-builders, police, and liaisons.

Of course Thumbsup
However I think the OP cannot tell the difference between what you are describing and "oh, I should try to feel less empathy because it will benefit me".

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07-12-2014, 04:56 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(06-12-2014 07:43 PM)tear151 Wrote:  With Trayvon Martin, did you say "Zimmerman did not follow social norms, he must be punished" or did you say "Zimmerman is bad, he is a bad person, Trayvon was innocent, this was a travesty". (Or a similar variant depending on your views on the case, this forum is generally liberal I went for that interpretation)

If you went for the second then on an emotional level you don't follow the system you have presented to me.

I say they were both idiots and the travesty is that they both made what I might call (in the context of the conversation) "immoral" decisions. The result?

One is dead and the other might as well be. I'm not sure how bringing up that situation is relevant to your point.

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07-12-2014, 06:14 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
I think you all seem to not understand the difference between why we behave in a moralistic way, and the should's and shouldn'ts of it all, moral nihilism is exactly a fun position, but at least it's logically consistent. I.E Should and shouldn't are incoherent.

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07-12-2014, 06:15 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(06-12-2014 08:57 PM)Stuffed_Assumption_Meringue Wrote:  Look Tear. I'll say your right for the sake of argument:
How is using an evolutionarily shaped wont to not see yourself harmed as a basis for decision making any less of a circular argument than using an evolutionarily shaped wont to not see yourself and others harmed as a basis for decision making?

I'm not saying that I should or shouldn't pursue that, because should's and shouldn'ts are incoherent, merely that that's just how humans are, and how I'm going to be, that's just how the brain works.

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