Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
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07-12-2014, 06:54 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(07-12-2014 06:15 PM)tear151 Wrote:  I'm not saying that I should or shouldn't pursue that, because should's and shouldn'ts are incoherent, merely that that's just how humans are, and how I'm going to be, that's just how the brain works.

Citation please.

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07-12-2014, 06:59 PM (This post was last modified: 07-12-2014 07:02 PM by tear151.)
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(07-12-2014 06:54 PM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  
(07-12-2014 06:15 PM)tear151 Wrote:  I'm not saying that I should or shouldn't pursue that, because should's and shouldn'ts are incoherent, merely that that's just how humans are, and how I'm going to be, that's just how the brain works.

Citation please.

Much cheers to all.

Will comes from the subconscious, im.argueing for determinism, to be honest that kind of determinism is pretty much the assumptions psychology makes.

I.can put some citations together but my psychology knowledge has been fed to me through peers in the field, it will take some time to compile them, give me some time.

Do you think we chose what we want? We choose to have a sex drive? I dont think free will even exists but surely you can see where im coming from here.

"A witty quote means nothing"
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07-12-2014, 08:07 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(07-12-2014 06:14 PM)tear151 Wrote:  I think you all seem to not understand the difference between why we behave in a moralistic way, and the should's and shouldn'ts of it all, moral nihilism is exactly a fun position, but at least it's logically consistent. I.E Should and shouldn't are incoherent.

I think your generalization proves you aren't actually understanding the posts.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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07-12-2014, 08:13 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(07-12-2014 06:15 PM)tear151 Wrote:  
(06-12-2014 08:57 PM)Stuffed_Assumption_Meringue Wrote:  Look Tear. I'll say your right for the sake of argument:
How is using an evolutionarily shaped wont to not see yourself harmed as a basis for decision making any less of a circular argument than using an evolutionarily shaped wont to not see yourself and others harmed as a basis for decision making?

I'm not saying that I should or shouldn't pursue that, because should's and shouldn'ts are incoherent, merely that that's just how humans are, and how I'm going to be, that's just how the brain works.

That does not answer the question. Not even close.

Soulless mutants of muscle and intent. There are billions of us; hardy, smart and dangerous. Shaped by millions of years of death. We are the definitive alpha predator. We build monsters of fire and stone. We bottled the sun. We nailed our god to a stick.

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07-12-2014, 08:21 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(07-12-2014 06:14 PM)tear151 Wrote:  I think you all seem to not understand the difference between why we behave in a moralistic way, and the should's and shouldn'ts of it all, moral nihilism is exactly a fun position, but at least it's logically consistent. I.E Should and shouldn't are incoherent.

Should and shouldn't are definitely coherent, and important. You're one step behind here.

Moral nihilism is a logical conclusion, just as it would be for any matter you might want to discuss. Nihilism of any sort isn't exactly a fun position, but at least it's logical.

Now the fun part is that once you realize this, you are free to chuck that whole set of conclusions down the fucking tubes because they don't get you anywhere outside of interesting talking points on internet forums.

Now you get to set your own moral paradigm, and you can call it whatever you want to because on a large enough scale it doesn't fucking matter anyway. However on a realistic scale between you and those you love, it matters in the fact that it affects the here and now as well as the future of yourself and those you love.

And so you find that you act exactly as you would as if the nonexistent morality that you are talking about were to actually exist, because obviously there's a reason that we act the way we do. It doesn't matter how you would like to describe it, it's still there.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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07-12-2014, 08:43 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(06-12-2014 04:18 PM)tear151 Wrote:  I know what you are thinking, this guy isn't an atheist, he's some sort of christian troll come to pretend to be an atheist... This has been answered so many times not this old chestnut... or here we go again, I assure you, this should hopefully be a different can of worms, I'm currently a physics and philosophy student and I've been in deep thought about the subject. I'm not a christian telling you morals exist and they don't make sense without God, I'm saying they don't exist, let's reject them entirely, let us reject humanism as merely the blind acceptance of christian values (colloquial christian values, not what is exactly written in the bible) after one renounces it's God

Throughout atheist literature there's a worrying tendency to hand wave to the question of secular morals, sweeping statements like "The golden rules still makes sense" or "We just know whether things are moral or not".

My worry is that all arguments for objective morality sounds very VERY similar in form to arguments for God, such as "it's immediately obvious" "We have a faculty within us that discerns it" "It's simply a priori". It seems ridiculous to me that a universe (That without God is entirely indifferent to us) has any universal moral laws within it...

This then leads to the subjective morals, but these too have a certain hypocrisy to them, if morality depends on the person, what legitimacy do you have to attempt to enforce it on the world, what reason do you have for that morality? Why not simply subjectively reject morals and live a sociopathic life where you gain conscious control over you empathy.

Basically, I have come to a position of amoralism, and just like atheism, the burden of proof isn't on me, it's on you, the moralists. I'm hoping this thread can be one where people comment with their explanations for "Why I should behave in a way you consider moral for it's own sake". I.e. I want to initiate a socratic dialogue with you all and try to get down to the nuts and bolts of your moral beliefs and see if anyone had a foundation to their beliefs that is entirely rational.

You may say you're not a troll, but you smell like you've been living under a bridge. Moral ineptitude is indeed a human endeavor, but not one that most humans subscribe to. If you find yourself surrounded by humans of that caliber, that has more to say about you than anyone else.

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07-12-2014, 08:50 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(07-12-2014 06:59 PM)tear151 Wrote:  Will comes from the subconscious, im.argueing for determinism, to be honest that kind of determinism is pretty much the assumptions psychology makes.

Do you think we chose what we want? We choose to have a sex drive? I dont think free will even exists but surely you can see where im coming from here.

No I can't.
Your nonsense about "will" is pathetic.
Provide citations for "will" and your assertion about what "assumptions Psychology makes".

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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07-12-2014, 09:10 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(06-12-2014 04:18 PM)tear151 Wrote:  I know what you are thinking, this guy isn't an atheist, he's some sort of christian troll come to pretend to be an atheist... This has been answered so many times not this old chestnut... or here we go again, I assure you, this should hopefully be a different can of worms, I'm currently a physics and philosophy student and I've been in deep thought about the subject. I'm not a christian telling you morals exist and they don't make sense without God, I'm saying they don't exist, let's reject them entirely, let us reject humanism as merely the blind acceptance of christian values (colloquial christian values, not what is exactly written in the bible) after one renounces it's God

Throughout atheist literature there's a worrying tendency to hand wave to the question of secular morals, sweeping statements like "The golden rules still makes sense" or "We just know whether things are moral or not".

My worry is that all arguments for objective morality sounds very VERY similar in form to arguments for God, such as "it's immediately obvious" "We have a faculty within us that discerns it" "It's simply a priori". It seems ridiculous to me that a universe (That without God is entirely indifferent to us) has any universal moral laws within it...

This then leads to the subjective morals, but these too have a certain hypocrisy to them, if morality depends on the person, what legitimacy do you have to attempt to enforce it on the world, what reason do you have for that morality? Why not simply subjectively reject morals and live a sociopathic life where you gain conscious control over you empathy.

Basically, I have come to a position of amoralism, and just like atheism, the burden of proof isn't on me, it's on you, the moralists. I'm hoping this thread can be one where people comment with their explanations for "Why I should behave in a way you consider moral for it's own sake". I.e. I want to initiate a socratic dialogue with you all and try to get down to the nuts and bolts of your moral beliefs and see if anyone had a foundation to their beliefs that is entirely rational.

I would argue that Christianity itself, is the result of objective moralism. Humans, as social creatures, strive to create a society that furthers the species...Enter 60's hippie dude. Peace...love...cheese pizza. Sounds like Jebus to me. Too bad most people "worship" him instead of listening to the original hippie.

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07-12-2014, 09:20 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(06-12-2014 04:18 PM)tear151 Wrote:  I know what you are thinking, this guy isn't an atheist, he's some sort of christian troll come to pretend to be an atheist... This has been answered so many times not this old chestnut... or here we go again, I assure you, this should hopefully be a different can of worms, I'm currently a physics and philosophy student and I've been in deep thought about the subject. I'm not a christian telling you morals exist and they don't make sense without God, I'm saying they don't exist, let's reject them entirely, let us reject humanism as merely the blind acceptance of christian values (colloquial christian values, not what is exactly written in the bible) after one renounces it's God

Throughout atheist literature there's a worrying tendency to hand wave to the question of secular morals, sweeping statements like "The golden rules still makes sense" or "We just know whether things are moral or not".

My worry is that all arguments for objective morality sounds very VERY similar in form to arguments for God, such as "it's immediately obvious" "We have a faculty within us that discerns it" "It's simply a priori". It seems ridiculous to me that a universe (That without God is entirely indifferent to us) has any universal moral laws within it...

This then leads to the subjective morals, but these too have a certain hypocrisy to them, if morality depends on the person, what legitimacy do you have to attempt to enforce it on the world, what reason do you have for that morality? Why not simply subjectively reject morals and live a sociopathic life where you gain conscious control over you empathy.

Basically, I have come to a position of amoralism, and just like atheism, the burden of proof isn't on me, it's on you, the moralists. I'm hoping this thread can be one where people comment with their explanations for "Why I should behave in a way you consider moral for it's own sake". I.e. I want to initiate a socratic dialogue with you all and try to get down to the nuts and bolts of your moral beliefs and see if anyone had a foundation to their beliefs that is entirely rational.

Dude, Morality is human nature. It's better for the tribe. Ask the ants. They know.

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07-12-2014, 09:31 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
Me thinks (oh how it hurts when I do that) that this is just another attempt to show that people without "GAWD" cannot possibly be moral. Xcuse me while I go find some babies to eat. BRB.

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