Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
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07-12-2014, 09:42 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
I'm glad I got out of this thread early.
BTW, I did ask a short and to-the-point question on the first page that has gone unanswered.
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07-12-2014, 09:49 PM (This post was last modified: 07-12-2014 09:59 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(07-12-2014 09:31 PM)The Drake Wrote:  Me thinks (oh how it hurts when I do that) that this is just another attempt to show that people without "GAWD" cannot possibly be moral. Xcuse me while I go find some babies to eat. BRB.

Re-reading the OP now. I think you're right. I had that suspicion with the presupps expressed in the OP, but now with none of the questions being answered, it's pretty obvious.

Dear Lard and Savior, Jebus, will no one save us from these meddlesome fools ?
The "we need a gawd to produce morality" is a version of : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirming_the_consequent fallacy.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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07-12-2014, 10:12 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(06-12-2014 05:06 PM)tear151 Wrote:  
(06-12-2014 04:54 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  Does that mean that you do whatever you want without caring about other people involved?

If you do care and simply do whatever pleases you without hurting others, then that's just your own morality.

If you don't care, then you simply lack empathy.

I have empathy, but I try to ignore it, I do what makes me happiest in the long term.

With that statement you are attempting to degrade empathy, one of the base components of the human phsyche...and failing. You are attempting to prove that without a moral compass (GOD) we can not function as a society. Which is simply not true

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07-12-2014, 11:06 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
Basic human morality is defined by the evolution of our brains that make us survive as a species and nothing more. Everything else is not Morality but ethics. Killing is wrong because our species needs to survive. Rape, sex with children, incest, and so on is wrong because our species is not endangered. Because of this, evolution took a switch to our brains and made it wrong for us to do those things.

Stealing is immoral because our brains are still very primitive and stealing anything triggers the survival instinct. That stuff we steal may not be food or water, but according to the brain, it needs that to survive on. So, basically speaking, stealing something is the same as stealing someones food or water ration for that day that they need to keep living. Therefor, according to the brain, your committing murder which is wrong because we need to survive as a species etc etc.

Everything else that does not have to do with violence, theft or sex. Is ethics.


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08-12-2014, 01:20 AM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(06-12-2014 04:47 PM)pablo Wrote:  I don't think objective morals exist, whether you think they came from a god or wherever.
Why do you assume I'm trying to enforce my subjective morals on the world?

If someone told they found there to be no problem with murder, would you say that thats just their subjective values, or would you tell them that this is immoral, if you went for the second you believe your standards to have some sort of primacy, some sort of objectivity.

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08-12-2014, 01:22 AM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(07-12-2014 10:12 PM)The Drake Wrote:  
(06-12-2014 05:06 PM)tear151 Wrote:  I have empathy, but I try to ignore it, I do what makes me happiest in the long term.

With that statement you are attempting to degrade empathy, one of the base components of the human phsyche...and failing. You are attempting to prove that without a moral compass (GOD) we can not function as a society. Which is simply not true

We dont need morals to function as a society, law and game theory is sufficient. Rational none moral parties have no reason to hurt eachother, especially if a state protects them.

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08-12-2014, 01:24 AM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(07-12-2014 11:06 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  Basic human morality is defined by the evolution of our brains that make us survive as a species and nothing more. Everything else is not Morality but ethics. Killing is wrong because our species needs to survive. Rape, sex with children, incest, and so on is wrong because our species is not endangered. Because of this, evolution took a switch to our brains and made it wrong for us to do those things.

Stealing is immoral because our brains are still very primitive and stealing anything triggers the survival instinct. That stuff we steal may not be food or water, but according to the brain, it needs that to survive on. So, basically speaking, stealing something is the same as stealing someones food or water ration for that day that they need to keep living. Therefor, according to the brain, your committing murder which is wrong because we need to survive as a species etc etc.

Everything else that does not have to do with violence, theft or sex. Is ethics.

Just because the human brain is quote on quote "designed" to ensure the survival of the species, doesnt make that an objective standard.

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08-12-2014, 01:25 AM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(07-12-2014 09:49 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(07-12-2014 09:31 PM)The Drake Wrote:  Me thinks (oh how it hurts when I do that) that this is just another attempt to show that people without "GAWD" cannot possibly be moral. Xcuse me while I go find some babies to eat. BRB.

Re-reading the OP now. I think you're right. I had that suspicion with the presupps expressed in the OP, but now with none of the questions being answered, it's pretty obvious.

Dear Lard and Savior, Jebus, will no one save us from these meddlesome fools ?
The "we need a gawd to produce morality" is a version of : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirming_the_consequent fallacy.

Even with God you cant have objective morals, what gives the deity any primacy in its opinions?

"A witty quote means nothing"
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08-12-2014, 01:31 AM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(07-12-2014 08:21 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(07-12-2014 06:14 PM)tear151 Wrote:  I think you all seem to not understand the difference between why we behave in a moralistic way, and the should's and shouldn'ts of it all, moral nihilism is exactly a fun position, but at least it's logically consistent. I.E Should and shouldn't are incoherent.

Should and shouldn't are definitely coherent, and important. You're one step behind here.

Moral nihilism is a logical conclusion, just as it would be for any matter you might want to discuss. Nihilism of any sort isn't exactly a fun position, but at least it's logical.

Now the fun part is that once you realize this, you are free to chuck that whole set of conclusions down the fucking tubes because they don't get you anywhere outside of interesting talking points on internet forums.

Now you get to set your own moral paradigm, and you can call it whatever you want to because on a large enough scale it doesn't fucking matter anyway. However on a realistic scale between you and those you love, it matters in the fact that it affects the here and now as well as the future of yourself and those you love.

And so you find that you act exactly as you would as if the nonexistent morality that you are talking about were to actually exist, because obviously there's a reason that we act the way we do. It doesn't matter how you would like to describe it, it's still there.

Nihilism for me isnt a depressing end point, it simply means that the world is a blank canvas, and that so is meaning and human purpose, the non existance of an objective moral standards makes a system without morals perfectly... Not justified, simply not requiring justification

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08-12-2014, 01:42 AM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(07-12-2014 08:13 PM)Stuffed_Assumption_Meringue Wrote:  
(07-12-2014 06:15 PM)tear151 Wrote:  I'm not saying that I should or shouldn't pursue that, because should's and shouldn'ts are incoherent, merely that that's just how humans are, and how I'm going to be, that's just how the brain works.

That does not answer the question. Not even close.

Yes youre right, it is still irrational, but humans arent rational, if we were completly rational wed be in a constant catatonic statevas wed have no drives. The difference is though that a morality makes claims about the world, saying murder is wrong supposes some property on murder called wrongness, my system is entirely internal.

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