Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
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08-12-2014, 06:36 AM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(08-12-2014 03:51 AM)Stuffed_Assumption_Meringue Wrote:  
(08-12-2014 01:42 AM)tear151 Wrote:  Yes youre right, it is still irrational, but humans arent rational, if we were completly rational wed be in a constant catatonic statevas wed have no drives. The difference is though that a morality makes claims about the world, saying murder is wrong supposes some property on murder called wrongness, my system is entirely internal.

The fuck does having an "entirely internal system" even mean?

Your system makes claims about the world as well. "This result is a desirable outcome" is a claim.

Desirable outcome relates to my emotions only, which are arbitrary.

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08-12-2014, 06:49 AM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
^Which leaves you with no point of difference between your motivating philosophy and morality except you, by your own admition, don't give a shit about others.

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08-12-2014, 06:49 AM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(08-12-2014 06:36 AM)tear151 Wrote:  
(08-12-2014 03:51 AM)Stuffed_Assumption_Meringue Wrote:  The fuck does having an "entirely internal system" even mean?

Your system makes claims about the world as well. "This result is a desirable outcome" is a claim.

Desirable outcome relates to my emotions only, which are arbitrary.

Not if a community in general agrees what a desirable outcome is, or defined what an undesirable outcome is. Your emotions are not "arbitrary". They ARE what they are. If you lost someone you loved, (you do love someone right ... if not you ARE mentally ill) your emotional are quite real. They would only be "arbitrary" if they are "random". They are not, unless you are sick, (which you may indeed be).

I still think OP is a religionist doing the "must have a gawd to be moral" schtick.

If this garbage passes for "deep thought", I'd hate to see what "normal" is. Consider

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08-12-2014, 07:13 AM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(08-12-2014 06:49 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(08-12-2014 06:36 AM)tear151 Wrote:  Desirable outcome relates to my emotions only, which are arbitrary.

Not if a community in general agrees what a desirable outcome is, or defined what an undesirable outcome is. Your emotions are not "arbitrary". They ARE what they are. If you lost someone you loved, (you do love someone right ... if not you ARE mentally ill) your emotional are quite real. They would only be "arbitrary" if they are "random". They are not, unless you are sick, (which you may indeed be).

I still think OP is a religionist doing the "must have a gawd to be moral" schtick.

If this garbage passes for "deep thought", I'd hate to see what "normal" is. Consider

Im not being ignorant im being an epistemologist, we are dealing with fundamental truth here, and your responses have contained so many assumptions.

Arbitrary does not mean random, it means not based on entirely logical statements. Basically you dont actually understand anything ive said to you, thats why it seems like garbage because you didnt understand any of what I said and completly (possibly willingly) misinterpreted Sorry, thats just the way it is.

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08-12-2014, 07:23 AM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(08-12-2014 03:26 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(08-12-2014 02:10 AM)tear151 Wrote:  How do you justify the system you use, and why cant I reject it? If no system is more.correct[sic] than any other you agree with my original point, its all emitional[sic] and arbitrary, you have no rational reason to be moral.

Are you trying to be purposely obtuse, or is a gift? Consider

Of course you can reject it, but if enough people in our group agree with me, we can and will impose the consensus upon you. This is why a crazy person can, and will, be prosecuted in civilized societies for premeditated murder if they actually listen to the voices in their head and kill their neighbors to appease said voices.

That being said, we do have a number of evolutionary bred predispositions that guide a majority of our species towards a few broad trends that have proven to be advantageous to our survival and propagation, such as empathy and social cohesion. Now if you layer upon that an education, a valuation of reason, logic, critical thought, and a desire for the truth; and you'll probably end up as something that can be classified as secular humanism. If however you layer upon that basis an emphasis on in-group-out-group thinking, fear of the other, and unquestioning respect of authority; then you might end up with something like Catholicism or fascism.

Does this make it all emotional and arbitrary? Fuck no you ignoramus. Facepalm

We value logic and reason because they have a consistent track record of working and providing useful explanations. Reason and logic gets shit done, and gets it done right. So valuing reason and logic is not arbitrary, but not valuing it may be irrational and emotional (see: religion).

So if you're educated enough to contemplate how societies are a mass of cause and effect interactions, how cooperative behavior tends to elevate the entire group better than being a selfish asshole, and if you have enough empathy and education to both understand and value how your actions affect more than just yourself; then it is very easy to build a logically consistent and reasoned morality, and doing so would be in both the best interest of yourself and your society (provided your interest is in the improvement, continuation, and propagation of yourself, your family, and your society).

That you so steadfastly cannot, or simply refuse to, understand this very simply concept speaks to your breathtaking inanity.

Youve assumed objective value to truth

Youve assumed objective value to reproduction because its "natural"

Youve assumed self interest doesnt include conforming to social norms and is anti-social, it is not

If you cant provide a rational argument to first principles and it is subjective, then it is emitional and arbitrary, that doesnt make it wrong, it makes it neutral and personal. Neither wrong nor right

I still behave in a way youd consider moral, but its because I am a scientifically predictable entity, I simply will act toward some arbitrary will. empathy.is included here, it doesnt need a new concept (morality) to explain.

Im not being obtuse, im being an epistemologist, to the untrained there is no difference.

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08-12-2014, 08:19 AM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
Quote:I have empathy, but I try to ignore it, I do what makes me happiest in the long term.

I went back and reread this thread. I must say, this quote has me intrigued. What actions are you trying to justify that would cause you to ignore your empathy?

"If there's a single thing that life teaches us, it's that wishing doesn't make it so." - Lev Grossman
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08-12-2014, 08:37 AM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(06-12-2014 04:18 PM)tear151 Wrote:  Basically, I have come to a position of amoralism, and just like atheism, the burden of proof isn't on me, it's on you, the moralists. I'm hoping this thread can be one where people comment with their explanations for "Why I should behave in a way you consider moral for it's own sake". I.e. I want to initiate a socratic dialogue with you all and try to get down to the nuts and bolts of your moral beliefs and see if anyone had a foundation to their beliefs that is entirely rational.

Good post, but as warning, you're not going to make any friends here arguing for the non-existence, or the incoherency of religionless morality. In fact the more sound your argument is, the more likely you are to be tarred and feathered.

Atheists tend to have a hard time relinquishing this particular form of magical thinking.
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08-12-2014, 08:41 AM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(08-12-2014 05:22 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(06-12-2014 04:39 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  If you reject all morals, what is it that directs your actions towards others?
Self interest.

You don't do something because it is the right thing to do, you don't do it because you want to be a good person. You can't, because there is no right and wrong, no good and bad.

When your motivation isn't based on morality you instead act out of self interest.
You don't become a psychopath because that would lead to prison or lead to others incapacitating you which is not in your own best self interest.

This question was actually aimed at the OP and is rendered useless if taken out of context.

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08-12-2014, 08:43 AM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(08-12-2014 08:37 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Atheists tend to have a hard time relinquishing this particular form of magical thinking.

So, in turn, are you admitting that theism is magical thinking? Consider

"If there's a single thing that life teaches us, it's that wishing doesn't make it so." - Lev Grossman
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08-12-2014, 08:51 AM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
In these discussions I always think of Cormac McCarthy, when speaking of his scientist friends at the Sante Fe Institute, who believed that it's more important to be good than smart. I think many atheists here would agree.
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