Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
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08-12-2014, 08:59 AM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(08-12-2014 08:43 AM)Nurse Wrote:  So, in turn, are you admitting that theism is magical thinking? Consider

That seems to be what many atheists argue.
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08-12-2014, 09:02 AM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(08-12-2014 07:13 AM)tear151 Wrote:  
(08-12-2014 06:49 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Not if a community in general agrees what a desirable outcome is, or defined what an undesirable outcome is. Your emotions are not "arbitrary". They ARE what they are. If you lost someone you loved, (you do love someone right ... if not you ARE mentally ill) your emotional are quite real. They would only be "arbitrary" if they are "random". They are not, unless you are sick, (which you may indeed be).

I still think OP is a religionist doing the "must have a gawd to be moral" schtick.

If this garbage passes for "deep thought", I'd hate to see what "normal" is. Consider

Im not being ignorant im being an epistemologist, we are dealing with fundamental truth here, and your responses have contained so many assumptions.

Arbitrary does not mean random, it means not based on entirely logical statements. Basically you dont actually understand anything ive said to you, thats why it seems like garbage because you didnt understand any of what I said and completly (possibly willingly) misinterpreted Sorry, thats just the way it is.

So you say. I did not say "arbitrary meant random". The one who doesn't get the discussion here is you. You may *think* you're (trying) to be an epistomologist, but you've utterly failed. You still have answered NONE of the points raised, which leads anyone to get the one who understands nothing here is YOU.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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08-12-2014, 09:06 AM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(08-12-2014 08:41 AM)undergroundp Wrote:  
(08-12-2014 05:22 AM)Stevil Wrote:  Self interest.

You don't do something because it is the right thing to do, you don't do it because you want to be a good person. You can't, because there is no right and wrong, no good and bad.

When your motivation isn't based on morality you instead act out of self interest.
You don't become a psychopath because that would lead to prison or lead to others incapacitating you which is not in your own best self interest.

This question was actually aimed at the OP and is rendered useless if taken out of context.

That would have been my answer

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08-12-2014, 09:08 AM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(08-12-2014 08:59 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(08-12-2014 08:43 AM)Nurse Wrote:  So, in turn, are you admitting that theism is magical thinking? Consider

That seems to be what many atheists argue.

Yes... It is

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08-12-2014, 10:39 AM (This post was last modified: 08-12-2014 10:48 AM by tear151.)
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(08-12-2014 09:02 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(08-12-2014 07:13 AM)tear151 Wrote:  Im not being ignorant im being an epistemologist, we are dealing with fundamental truth here, and your responses have contained so many assumptions.

Arbitrary does not mean random, it means not based on entirely logical statements. Basically you dont actually understand anything ive said to you, thats why it seems like garbage because you didnt understand any of what I said and completly (possibly willingly) misinterpreted Sorry, thats just the way it is.

So you say. I did not say "arbitrary meant random". The one who doesn't get the discussion here is you. You may *think* you're (trying) to be an epistomologist, but you've utterly failed. You still have answered NONE of the points raised, which leads anyone to get the one who understands nothing here is YOU.

The negative position requires no proof, im probing you here to provide evidence for morals that are seperate from self interest that should be followed, social contracts apply to sociopaths.

Im answering questions with questions like.you would with a theist, the burden of proof os on them. Now please stop with the all caps it doesnt make you more convincing.

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08-12-2014, 10:47 AM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(08-12-2014 10:39 AM)tear151 Wrote:  
(08-12-2014 09:02 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  So you say. I did not say "arbitrary meant random". The one who doesn't get the discussion here is you. You may *think* you're (trying) to be an epistomologist, but you've utterly failed. You still have answered NONE of the points raised, which leads anyone to get the one who understands nothing here is YOU.

The negative position requires no proof, im probing you here to provide evidence for morals that are seperate from self interest that should be followed, social contracts apply to sociopaths.

They may apply but the very definition of sociopath means that they don't conform or acknowledge said contract.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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08-12-2014, 10:49 AM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(08-12-2014 10:39 AM)tear151 Wrote:  
(08-12-2014 09:02 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  So you say. I did not say "arbitrary meant random". The one who doesn't get the discussion here is you. You may *think* you're (trying) to be an epistomologist, but you've utterly failed. You still have answered NONE of the points raised, which leads anyone to get the one who understands nothing here is YOU.

The negative position requires no proof, im probing you here to provide evidence for morals that are seperate from self interest that should be followed, social contracts apply to sociopaths.

Why do you want to separate self interest from "morals"? Self intetests lead TO moral behavior.

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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08-12-2014, 10:49 AM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(08-12-2014 10:47 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(08-12-2014 10:39 AM)tear151 Wrote:  The negative position requires no proof, im probing you here to provide evidence for morals that are seperate from self interest that should be followed, social contracts apply to sociopaths.

They may apply but the very definition of sociopath means that they don't conform or acknowledge said contract.

Thats a free rider, a sociopath simply lacks empathy, you mix up free riders sadists and sociopaths.

A sociopath follows the law to avoid punishment.

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08-12-2014, 10:53 AM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(08-12-2014 10:49 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  
(08-12-2014 10:39 AM)tear151 Wrote:  The negative position requires no proof, im probing you here to provide evidence for morals that are seperate from self interest that should be followed, social contracts apply to sociopaths.

Why do you want to separate self interest from "morals"? Self intetests lead TO moral behavior.

Then why distinguish.the two? I agree, the problem is if they are the same thing the term morality isnt needed, people cling to the word moral so they can feel better about themselves, if thry cannot be seperated the word moral offers no explanatory power, and it leads to confusion.

The use of the word moral also means people will go back to objective morals without realising it.

Basically for morals to exist in a meaningful sense they must be seperate from self interest. I advocate the terms abolition to avoid confusion.

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08-12-2014, 10:56 AM (This post was last modified: 08-12-2014 11:04 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(08-12-2014 10:49 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  Why do you want to separate self interest from "morals"? Self intetests lead TO moral behavior.

And what exactly makes behavior moral? If I act in certain instance for no purpose besides avoiding going to jail, would this make my act immoral? Are actions all that is relevant, do intentions not matter at all?
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