Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
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08-12-2014, 11:01 AM (This post was last modified: 08-12-2014 11:04 AM by tear151.)
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(08-12-2014 10:56 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(08-12-2014 10:49 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  Why do you want to separate self interest from "morals"? Self intetests lead TO moral behavior.

And what exactly makes behavior moral? If I act in certain instance for no purpose besides avoiding going to jail, would this make my act immoral? Are actions all that is relevant, do intentions not matter at all?

Bingo, youve hit the nail on the head, morals put an intrinsic value in the action that is seperate from self interest and social contract, that value is what I deny, I do not care about others in that I am indifferent unless they benefit me, I am no sadist.

When you say that moral.behavouir for moralities sake is good, thats a claim about how the world is and should be enforced, it cant be subjective, its only subjective if you.Kerp it personal, if you only make statements about how you will behave.

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08-12-2014, 11:04 AM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
Moral appeals seem to be unnecessary, and often just add a layer of convolutedness to the whole thing.

Why not suggest that people act in ways to avoid jail, act in ways to avoid social finger wagging, etc..if at the end of the day that's all morality amounts too?
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08-12-2014, 11:06 AM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(08-12-2014 11:04 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Moral appeals seem to be unnecessary, and often just add a layer of convolutedness to the whole thing.

Why not suggest that people act in ways to avoid jail, act in ways to avoid social finger wagging, etc..if at the end of the day that's all morality amounts too?

Thats literally my exact position, we have no reason to be moral, only act in our self interest, and what youve described comes under that umbrella.

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08-12-2014, 11:17 AM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(08-12-2014 10:56 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(08-12-2014 10:49 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  Why do you want to separate self interest from "morals"? Self intetests lead TO moral behavior.

And what exactly makes behavior moral? If I act in certain instance for no purpose besides avoiding going to jail, would this make my act immoral? Are actions all that is relevant, do intentions not matter at all?

I didnt say intensions do not matter.
Please dont put words in my mouth.

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08-12-2014, 11:22 AM (This post was last modified: 08-12-2014 11:30 AM by tear151.)
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(08-12-2014 11:17 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  
(08-12-2014 10:56 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  And what exactly makes behavior moral? If I act in certain instance for no purpose besides avoiding going to jail, would this make my act immoral? Are actions all that is relevant, do intentions not matter at all?

I didnt say intensions do not matter.
Please dont put words in my mouth.

Oh so you do intentions matter? Why do they? and as I've said, if you are judging the intentions of others by your standard, you need to rationally justify it, you need to justify a morality that isnt just self interest renamed. Others wise it's just that, a subjective preference, and we're free to ignore it.

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08-12-2014, 11:24 AM (This post was last modified: 08-12-2014 11:28 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(08-12-2014 11:17 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  I didnt say intensions do not matter.
Please dont put words in my mouth.

I didn't put words in your mouth, I asked you if they matter.

Would you say actions are made moral by intentions?
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08-12-2014, 11:33 AM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(08-12-2014 11:04 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Moral appeals seem to be unnecessary, and often just add a layer of convolutedness to the whole thing.

Why not suggest that people act in ways to avoid jail, act in ways to avoid social finger wagging, etc..if at the end of the day that's all morality amounts too?

The POINT is, that at some point, behaviors that are judged to be injurious to the COMMUNITY were entailed with a civil punishment. Jail is a consequence. The act that injures a community is what is immoral.

This is really not all that difficult, boys.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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08-12-2014, 11:38 AM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
Perhaps it would be better if I substitute the word arbitrary with Arational? Would that be to peoples tastes?

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08-12-2014, 11:40 AM (This post was last modified: 08-12-2014 11:44 AM by tear151.)
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(08-12-2014 11:33 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(08-12-2014 11:04 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Moral appeals seem to be unnecessary, and often just add a layer of convolutedness to the whole thing.

Why not suggest that people act in ways to avoid jail, act in ways to avoid social finger wagging, etc..if at the end of the day that's all morality amounts too?

The POINT is, that at some point, behaviors that are judged to be injurious to the COMMUNITY were entailed with a civil punishment. Jail is a consequence. The act that injures a community is what is immoral.

This is really not all that difficult, boys.

Well yes but that definition of immoral is indistinguishable from "Anti-self interest" that the word morality is made defunct, if you think that not damaging the community has some intrinsic value, that you expect others to accept, then I'm afraid that's not subjective, and you need arguments other than showing behaviour considered moral is in my self interest.

I understand your arguments, they aren't new to me, you're throwing stuff back to me verbatim that I've already studied, if it seems I'm missing something obvious, maybe you should might have reasons to reject what you consider so "Not difficult boys".

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08-12-2014, 11:41 AM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(08-12-2014 11:22 AM)tear151 Wrote:  
(08-12-2014 11:17 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  I didnt say intensions do not matter.
Please dont put words in my mouth.

Oh so you do intentions matter? Why do they? and as I've said, if you are judging the intentions of others by your standard, you need to rationally justify it, you need to justify a morality that isnt just self interest renamed. Others wise it's just that, a subjective preference, and we're free to ignore it.

I dont know Who you guys are quoting or if you're just jumping to conclusions here....
But i said
Self interest lead TO moral behavior.
Period.

Thats all i said AND all i meant.


Jesus!

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