Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
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08-12-2014, 11:43 AM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(08-12-2014 11:41 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  
(08-12-2014 11:22 AM)tear151 Wrote:  Oh so you do intentions matter? Why do they? and as I've said, if you are judging the intentions of others by your standard, you need to rationally justify it, you need to justify a morality that isnt just self interest renamed. Others wise it's just that, a subjective preference, and we're free to ignore it.

I dont know Who you guys are quoting or if you're just jumping to conclusions here....
But i said
Self interest lead TO moral behavior.
Period.

Thats all i said AND all i meant.


Jesus!

Ok then what decides if a behaviour is moral? Is it separate from self interest? Yes I know self interested behaviour leads to acting morally, most the time, but those "atheists churches" that propped up lead to the same thing faith did, but the reason for doing so was far more solid. That's what I'm doing mainly.

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08-12-2014, 11:49 AM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(08-12-2014 11:43 AM)tear151 Wrote:  
(08-12-2014 11:41 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  I dont know Who you guys are quoting or if you're just jumping to conclusions here....
But i said
Self interest lead TO moral behavior.
Period.

Thats all i said AND all i meant.


Jesus!

Ok then what decides if a behaviour is moral? Is it separate from self interest? Yes I know self interested behaviour leads to acting morally, most the time, but those "atheists churches" that propped up lead to the same thing faith did, but the reason for doing so was far more solid. That's what I'm doing mainly.


People decide what moral behavior is.
And dont climb up my ass saying "which" people.

You're trying to argue me when I have no argument.
I was simply contributing to the thoughts presented in this thread.

Argue each other.


Eesh

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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08-12-2014, 11:56 AM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(08-12-2014 09:06 AM)tear151 Wrote:  
(08-12-2014 08:41 AM)undergroundp Wrote:  This question was actually aimed at the OP and is rendered useless if taken out of context.

That would have been my answer

It doesn't matter. It was taken out of context.

What is the point of this thread anyway? I still can't tell.

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08-12-2014, 12:03 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(08-12-2014 11:33 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  The POINT is, that at some point, behaviors that are judged to be injurious to the COMMUNITY were entailed with a civil punishment. Jail is a consequence. The act that injures a community is what is immoral.

This is really not all that difficult, boys.

Most atheists are completely clueless as to how the concept of morality has been understand and developed historically. They don't understand how much the foundations of morality which many of us take for granted, has been dependent on a teleological view of life, and once that's been removed, morality becomes a sort of taboo, an incoherent mess when speaking of it conceived without this sort of foundation in mind.

When atheists try and recreate a foundation, they typically play fast and loose.

It moves from consequence, to intention, to the state, to empathy, and continually moves in such away, so they can avoid acknowledging the piece that's missing. They can't see why they're having such trouble speaking of this supposed foundation, that the dissonance their encountering is a result of it's absence.

A great work on the topic, if Alasdair Macintyre's After Virtue, for those who are interested.
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08-12-2014, 12:06 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(08-12-2014 11:56 AM)undergroundp Wrote:  
(08-12-2014 09:06 AM)tear151 Wrote:  That would have been my answer

It doesn't matter. It was taken out of context.

What is the point of this thread anyway? I still can't tell.

Morals dont exist outside of self interest, thus morality is a meaningless concept, any notion of morals outside of self interest is inchorent, thus the entire notion of morals is defunct, and there is only self interest, no good, no bad,.only maninfestations of the ego.

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08-12-2014, 12:07 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(08-12-2014 12:03 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(08-12-2014 11:33 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  The POINT is, that at some point, behaviors that are judged to be injurious to the COMMUNITY were entailed with a civil punishment. Jail is a consequence. The act that injures a community is what is immoral.

This is really not all that difficult, boys.

Most atheists are completely clueless as to how the concept of morality has been understand and developed historically. They don't understand how much the foundations of morality which many of us take for granted, has been dependent on a teleological view of life, and once that's been removed, morality becomes a sort of taboo, an incoherent mess when speaking of it conceived without this sort of foundation in mind.

When atheists try and recreate a foundation, they typically play fast and loose.

It moves from consequence, to intention, to the state, to empathy, and continually moves in such away, so they can avoid acknowledging the piece that's missing. They can't see why they're having such trouble speaking of this supposed foundation, that the dissonance their encountering is a result of it's absence.

A great work on the topic, if Alasdair Macintyre's After Virtue, for those who are interested.

"Most atheists" ? How in the hell would you know that ? Show us the poll. NOW. How many do you even know ? You intellectually dishonest, patronizing, self-righteous fool. Keep your preaching in your pants. YOU said you could easily make an argument. You FAILIED to do, so, even while blustering about how easy it was. You are a fucking liar. Make THE ARGUMENT now, or STFU.

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08-12-2014, 12:08 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(08-12-2014 12:03 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(08-12-2014 11:33 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  The POINT is, that at some point, behaviors that are judged to be injurious to the COMMUNITY were entailed with a civil punishment. Jail is a consequence. The act that injures a community is what is immoral.

This is really not all that difficult, boys.

Most atheists are completely clueless as to how the concept of morality has been understand and developed historically. They don't understand how much the foundations of morality which many of us take for granted, has been dependent on a teleological view of life, and once that's been removed, morality becomes a sort of taboo, an incoherent mess when speaking of it conceived without this sort of foundation in mind.

When atheists try and recreate a foundation, they typically play fast and loose.

It moves from consequence, to intention, to the state, to empathy, and continually moves in such away, so they can avoid acknowledging the piece that's missing. They can't see why they're having such trouble speaking of this supposed foundation, that the dissonance their encountering is a result of it's absence.

A great work on the topic, if Alasdair Macintyre's After Virtue, for those who are interested.

Mind if I take that quote on the dissonance being due to absence for future use?

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08-12-2014, 12:09 PM (This post was last modified: 08-12-2014 12:14 PM by tear151.)
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(08-12-2014 12:07 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(08-12-2014 12:03 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Most atheists are completely clueless as to how the concept of morality has been understand and developed historically. They don't understand how much the foundations of morality which many of us take for granted, has been dependent on a teleological view of life, and once that's been removed, morality becomes a sort of taboo, an incoherent mess when speaking of it conceived without this sort of foundation in mind.

When atheists try and recreate a foundation, they typically play fast and loose.

It moves from consequence, to intention, to the state, to empathy, and continually moves in such away, so they can avoid acknowledging the piece that's missing. They can't see why they're having such trouble speaking of this supposed foundation, that the dissonance their encountering is a result of it's absence.

A great work on the topic, if Alasdair Macintyre's After Virtue, for those who are interested.

"Most atheists" ? How in the hell would you know that ? Show us the poll. NOW. How many do you even know ? You intellectually dishonest, patronizing, self-righteous fool. Keep your preaching in your pants. YOU said you could easily make an argument. You FAILIED to do, so, even while blustering about how easy it was. You are a fucking liar. Make THE ARGUMENT now, or STFU.

Thanks for your entirely cool headed rational response. Calm down.

I am defining morals, as reasons to do things that are considered good, because they are good, rather than self interest, because without that distinction the two mean the same thing.

Mine is the negative position, my argument is your lack of evidence for morality beyond self interest. It is like how the atheist doesnt need to prove their position to theists.

If you disagree with my definition of morals then that was my fault for being unclear, still, calm down.

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08-12-2014, 12:17 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(08-12-2014 08:41 AM)undergroundp Wrote:  
(08-12-2014 05:22 AM)Stevil Wrote:  Self interest.

You don't do something because it is the right thing to do, you don't do it because you want to be a good person. You can't, because there is no right and wrong, no good and bad.

When your motivation isn't based on morality you instead act out of self interest.
You don't become a psychopath because that would lead to prison or lead to others incapacitating you which is not in your own best self interest.

This question was actually aimed at the OP and is rendered useless if taken out of context.

Oh, sorry. I thought it was a great question and wanted to offer my perspective. I didn't think I was taking it out of context. I actually pretty much agree with most of what tear151 is saying but then I haven't thoroughly scanned this thread.
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08-12-2014, 12:20 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(08-12-2014 12:17 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(08-12-2014 08:41 AM)undergroundp Wrote:  This question was actually aimed at the OP and is rendered useless if taken out of context.

Oh, sorry. I thought it was a great question and wanted to offer my perspective. I didn't think I was taking it out of context. I actually pretty much agree with most of what tear151 is saying but then I haven't thoroughly scanned this thread.

There was a general hostility at first, my fault due to the phrasing of the title, but as it's gone on things have gotten close to my original meaning. People thought acting on self interest meant going around eating babies or whatever.

I asked for reasons to be moral that aren't self interested, I was bombarded with reasons why being moral is in my self interest XD

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