Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
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08-12-2014, 01:45 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(08-12-2014 01:32 PM)tear151 Wrote:  
(08-12-2014 01:11 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  That's seriously hilarious.
Maybe it's not in my self-interest to stop insulting you. Gasp
Thanks for just refuting your entire thread. Thumbsup YOU DO CARE how you are treated by others, and it matters to you.
If you are so incredibly childish that you think you can treat others without regard to their feelings, and NOT have that returned to you, you are to be pitied.
Laugh out load

(Your logic was no better than theist trolls).

Facepalm That was sarcastic, I can't believe you took that seriously... just... uh... no, I still don't accept your definitions, the concepts and arguments I've used, use my definitions, if you think I'm wrong by those ones, then I encourage to say why. to be honest yours is inconsistent because if whatever I choose to do is a moral system, that makes every action I do moral, it becomes meaningless. I want you to stop insulting me because it's getting the way of discourse, not because I'm offended. fine let me rephrase it

"Stop insulting me if you intend to continue with this conversation as I'm in no way obligated to put up with it" Feel free if you want too, I'm not hurt by it, I'm just groaning more than anything. So is probably anyone reading this.

Sure it was sarcastic. Sure it was. Groaning or whatever, you've been whining about the way you were treated. YOU CARE how others threat you. You have destroyed your own argument all by your little self. Even your rephrase PROVES you CARE how others treat you, or you will not engage.

I love it when people defeat their own arguments themselves.

LMFAO

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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08-12-2014, 01:52 PM (This post was last modified: 08-12-2014 02:03 PM by tear151.)
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(08-12-2014 01:45 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(08-12-2014 01:32 PM)tear151 Wrote:  Facepalm That was sarcastic, I can't believe you took that seriously... just... uh... no, I still don't accept your definitions, the concepts and arguments I've used, use my definitions, if you think I'm wrong by those ones, then I encourage to say why. to be honest yours is inconsistent because if whatever I choose to do is a moral system, that makes every action I do moral, it becomes meaningless. I want you to stop insulting me because it's getting the way of discourse, not because I'm offended. fine let me rephrase it

"Stop insulting me if you intend to continue with this conversation as I'm in no way obligated to put up with it" Feel free if you want too, I'm not hurt by it, I'm just groaning more than anything. So is probably anyone reading this.

Sure it was sarcastic. Sure it was. Groaning or whatever, you've been whining about the way you were treated. YOU CARE how others threat you. You have destroyed your own argument all by your little self. Even your rephrase PROVES you CARE how others treat you, or you will not engage.

I love it when people defeat their own arguments themselves.

LMFAO

Weeping oh no what shall I do, clearly you are the master of understanding irony, clearly you are the all mighty intellectual who see's through my bullshit, all hail bucky ball, king of rational thought, king of psychoanalysis Bowing yes I had a feeling the irony would be lost on you, but I hoped for better... ugh... I said that you were "objectively right", why would I say that if... oh... just... uh.. what?

Oh for fucks sake seriously though you don't understand irony, and you've completely changed the topic of the conversation to just intellectual masturbation where you interpret things in the way that most justifies your first initial knee jerk reaction that I am an idiot.

If you want to get your big intellectual cock out and play with it please do it in the corner, I don't have to put up with it, and yes, that's entirely because putting up with it is against my self interest, I'm done with you now, believe what you want about me, there are people here who actually care about the discussion.

Bye Bye now Drinking Beverage

"A witty quote means nothing"
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08-12-2014, 01:57 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(08-12-2014 01:32 PM)tear151 Wrote:  
(08-12-2014 01:11 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  That's seriously hilarious.
Maybe it's not in my self-interest to stop insulting you. Gasp
Thanks for just refuting your entire thread. Thumbsup YOU DO CARE how you are treated by others, and it matters to you.
If you are so incredibly childish that you think you can treat others without regard to their feelings, and NOT have that returned to you, you are to be pitied.
Laugh out load

(Your logic was no better than theist trolls).

Facepalm That was sarcastic, I can't believe you took that seriously... just... uh... no, I still don't accept your definitions, the concepts and arguments I've used, use my definitions, if you think I'm wrong by those ones, then I encourage to say why. to be honest yours is inconsistent because if whatever I choose to do is a moral system, that makes every action I do moral, it becomes meaningless. I want you to stop insulting me because it's getting the way of discourse, not because I'm offended. fine let me rephrase it (and if you accuse me of covering my tracks by pretending it was sarcastic I'm just going laugh at you and go because at that point you just aren't worth my time anymore)

"Stop insulting me if you intend to continue with this conversation as I'm in no way obligated to put up with it" Feel free if you want too, I'm not hurt by it, I'm just groaning more than anything. So is probably anyone reading this.

No member here has to "stop insulting" you or each other for that matter. You do not dictate behavior in this thread or any other. If you act like an ass on our forum people will put you in check. Period.

We all have the choice to select 'ignore' or visit in other threads, etc.

As for me I've offered where I believe moral behavior to stem from. Past that it's rather a complicated mess to define further. That definition depends upon too many factors; lots of variables ... Even things like time & geography.
So.... You can all argue one another into the ground but it's not really good, moral behavior, is it? Or see.... Thats a random viewpoint of my own & may well not apply to other's opinions. Fancy that.

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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08-12-2014, 02:00 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(08-12-2014 01:57 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  
(08-12-2014 01:32 PM)tear151 Wrote:  Facepalm That was sarcastic, I can't believe you took that seriously... just... uh... no, I still don't accept your definitions, the concepts and arguments I've used, use my definitions, if you think I'm wrong by those ones, then I encourage to say why. to be honest yours is inconsistent because if whatever I choose to do is a moral system, that makes every action I do moral, it becomes meaningless. I want you to stop insulting me because it's getting the way of discourse, not because I'm offended. fine let me rephrase it (and if you accuse me of covering my tracks by pretending it was sarcastic I'm just going laugh at you and go because at that point you just aren't worth my time anymore)

"Stop insulting me if you intend to continue with this conversation as I'm in no way obligated to put up with it" Feel free if you want too, I'm not hurt by it, I'm just groaning more than anything. So is probably anyone reading this.

No member here has to "stop insulting" you or each other for that matter. You do not dictate behavior in this thread or any other. If you act like an ass on our forum people will put you in check. Period.

We all have the choice to select 'ignore' or visit in other threads, etc.

As for me I've offered where I believe moral behavior to stem from. Past that it's rather a complicated mess to define further. That definition depends upon too many factors; lots of variables ... Even things like time & geography.
So.... You can all argue one another into the ground but it's not really good, moral behavior, is it? Or see.... Thats a random viewpoint of my own & may well not apply to other's opinions. Fancy that.

I just wanted him to get back on topic... because I arbitrarily value actual discussion over mud slinging. He doesn't have to stop insulting me, he doesn't have to do anything, he only had to stop insulting me if he wanted me to continue paying even the remotest bit of attention to him and he simply refused, you know, before I do as you say and ignore him, no skin off my nose.

The threads probably dead now... sad

"A witty quote means nothing"
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08-12-2014, 02:11 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(08-12-2014 02:00 PM)tear151 Wrote:  
(08-12-2014 01:57 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  No member here has to "stop insulting" you or each other for that matter. You do not dictate behavior in this thread or any other. If you act like an ass on our forum people will put you in check. Period.

We all have the choice to select 'ignore' or visit in other threads, etc.

As for me I've offered where I believe moral behavior to stem from. Past that it's rather a complicated mess to define further. That definition depends upon too many factors; lots of variables ... Even things like time & geography.
So.... You can all argue one another into the ground but it's not really good, moral behavior, is it? Or see.... Thats a random viewpoint of my own & may well not apply to other's opinions. Fancy that.

I just wanted him to get back on topic... because I arbitrarily value actual discussion over mud slinging. He doesn't have to stop insulting me, he doesn't have to do anything, he only had to stop insulting me if he wanted me to continue paying even the remotest bit of attention to him and he simply refused, you know, before I do as you say and ignore him, no skin off my nose.

The threads probably dead now... sad

We just don't take kindly to whiners or complainers here. If an opinion is to be valued it must stand on its own merit. If its met with opposition then its probably not carried its own weight.
Thats all.

Insults tend to start flying when people fuss like babies if their ideas or thoughts conclusions or questions arent heralded as the next coming of Thor. So....theres that tid bit to bear in mind.
(For ANYone......not you, persay)

If you want to hang here & toss around ideas or questions grow some thicker skin. No one has to take your word as gospel.....unless you make conclusive statements. If you have conclusive statements then maybe steer clear from confusing definitions on things like "morals" cause thats just a rabbit hole.


We should..... I dunno......drink or something lol

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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08-12-2014, 02:12 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
And
PS
The thread title sucks.
Theres no link between atheists & morals.

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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08-12-2014, 02:18 PM (This post was last modified: 08-12-2014 02:23 PM by tear151.)
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(08-12-2014 02:11 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  
(08-12-2014 02:00 PM)tear151 Wrote:  I just wanted him to get back on topic... because I arbitrarily value actual discussion over mud slinging. He doesn't have to stop insulting me, he doesn't have to do anything, he only had to stop insulting me if he wanted me to continue paying even the remotest bit of attention to him and he simply refused, you know, before I do as you say and ignore him, no skin off my nose.

The threads probably dead now... sad

We just don't take kindly to whiners or complainers here. If an opinion is to be valued it must stand on its own merit. If its met with opposition then its probably not carried its own weight.
Thats all.

Insults tend to start flying when people fuss like babies if their ideas or thoughts conclusions or questions arent heralded as the next coming of Thor. So....theres that tid bit to bear in mind.
(For ANYone......not you, persay)

If you want to hang here & toss around ideas or questions grow some thicker skin. No one has to take your word as gospel.....unless you make conclusive statements. If you have conclusive statements then maybe steer clear from confusing definitions on things like "morals" cause thats just a rabbit hole.


We should..... I dunno......drink or something lol

Again, I wasn't offended by him, I wanted him to get back on track because he was behaving like an ass, I expected my ideas to be challenged, I enjoyed the debate, I'm not offended, he was offering nothing constructive from page 1 so I offered an ultimatum. It just got to the point where he was acting like a child, so I treated him like one.

I'm only defending myself to you because so far you've been civil, and civility is the basis for any discussion in philosophy as taking it personally get's you nowhere, it becomes more about intellectual cock jousting than it does about what's actually right.

Yeah a drink would be nice, sigh... my workload can get rather crazy at times, mock exams in mathematics in physics woop, woop, the alcohol takes all the pain away

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08-12-2014, 02:22 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(08-12-2014 02:12 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  And
PS
The thread title sucks.
Theres no link between atheists & morals.

Yes, you are correct about that, atheism is simply the denial of God as I am aware, however, there are more implications to a Godless world than simply "There is no God". A large portion of ethics was based on the idea that "God says so". So atheism makes a large part of accepted western philosophy unfounded as the God explanation can no longer be valid.

My atheism led me to nihilism, which led to moral nihilism, which led me to question what I could do in a meaningless world... I discovered I could just make one up, with no regard for the ideas of old, so I rejected morality as a relic of God more than anything, instead of saying, there is no morality without God therefore God, I went for, No Morality without God, therefore not necessarily morality, morality is just one the things you can choose to be your meaning.

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08-12-2014, 02:25 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(08-12-2014 12:06 PM)tear151 Wrote:  
(08-12-2014 11:56 AM)undergroundp Wrote:  It doesn't matter. It was taken out of context.

What is the point of this thread anyway? I still can't tell.

Morals dont exist outside of self interest, thus morality is a meaningless concept, any notion of morals outside of self interest is inchorent, thus the entire notion of morals is defunct, and there is only self interest, no good, no bad,.only maninfestations of the ego.

Then we could say that morality was "invented" for the well-being of society and by extension the well-being of humans.

If you don't like "good" and "bad", how about beneficial to life and harmful to life?

If there is no "good" or "bad", then we can say that murder is not good or bad, but we can say it is harmful to life. As living beings, we want to live and feel pleasure, thus the things that are beneficial to our well-being are "good".

Laws, as you said, are not enough. People who want to harm others are often not intimidated by a prison sentence. If I don't harm others, it's not because I will be punished, but rather because I feel empathy, and their pain is my pain. It's not like I can wake up one day and be like "well, let's not care about anyone today".

You may call that self interest, but there definitely is significance in what is "good" and "bad" if you think about the terms as "beneficial" and "harmful" to life.

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08-12-2014, 02:26 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(08-12-2014 12:50 PM)tear151 Wrote:  It's not that I'm trying to keep a cool head, I just don't take philosophy personally, I never have, thank for you the words on encouragement though...
Yeah, I think some people are on guard in some atheist forums because there are quite a few theist that come by, drop a whole lot of crazy on us and try to convince us that we are wrong for not believing in gods.

I can see that for many people the idea that moral beliefs aren't real, and aren't of value can appear to be crazy.

My experience at philosophy forums is that they are much more open to discussing ideas like this, dissecting them, looking at them from various angles, kicking the tyres so to speak. They don't see it as a challenge to their personal beliefs or as an insult i.e. "You atheists have no morals!".
They are more like "What would the world look like if we disguarded the idea of morality?, How would society behave?" Which leads to the question "what is morality? what qualifies an action as moral or immoral?"
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