Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
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08-12-2014, 04:20 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(08-12-2014 04:05 PM)tear151 Wrote:  On the bright side raising an egoist child doesnt leave much room for teenage rebellion Tongue
Yes, exactly. If you are 15 or 18, you've done well to think of these things.
I've considered this myself. If my kids are already making their own decisions then they don't need to rebel from me once they reach the teenage self assured enlightenment period. LOL

(08-12-2014 04:08 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  I'm pretty sure that children learn empathy by mimicking adults. Aren't you worried about them growing up thinking that their role-model is capable of murder? Not trying to sound offensive in any way.
Smile, no, that's a great call.
My girls know that I am silly. Top of the silly class. Mum on the other hand is failing silly class.
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08-12-2014, 04:23 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(08-12-2014 04:20 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(08-12-2014 04:08 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  I'm pretty sure that children learn empathy by mimicking adults. Aren't you worried about them growing up thinking that their role-model is capable of murder? Not trying to sound offensive in any way.
Smile, no, that's a great call.
My girls know that I am silly. Top of the silly class. Mum on the other hand is failing silly class.

That's good then Thumbsup

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08-12-2014, 04:29 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(08-12-2014 04:16 PM)tear151 Wrote:  
(08-12-2014 04:14 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  Turns out my "projecting" wasn't too far off after all, eh TearyOne?

I have had the relationships, they simply lacked a certain amount of meaning which I craved and they didn't, I am a socialite mainly, I do get on with people, I'm out of touch in the sense I can't truly connect with anyone, but getting off my tits at a pub and having a fun night out doesn't require some profound connection does it. I will admit it now, that was an entirely knee jerk emotional defence, but you seemed interpreted my ideas as me being some edgy hardcore metal loving thrasher who says fuck you to society, i.e trying to impress you all with how edgy and "cool" and "selfish" I am, I hope it's been made clear later in the thread that wasn't the original intent.

Yeah, I just wanted to see if you had a sense of humor still.

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08-12-2014, 04:43 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(08-12-2014 04:29 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  
(08-12-2014 04:16 PM)tear151 Wrote:  I have had the relationships, they simply lacked a certain amount of meaning which I craved and they didn't, I am a socialite mainly, I do get on with people, I'm out of touch in the sense I can't truly connect with anyone, but getting off my tits at a pub and having a fun night out doesn't require some profound connection does it. I will admit it now, that was an entirely knee jerk emotional defence, but you seemed interpreted my ideas as me being some edgy hardcore metal loving thrasher who says fuck you to society, i.e trying to impress you all with how edgy and "cool" and "selfish" I am, I hope it's been made clear later in the thread that wasn't the original intent.

Yeah, I just wanted to see if you had a sense of humor still.

Oh god man, this went into some pass the bong dude self reflection a long time ago, you only get real talk from here on in. Tongue

The main advantage of being my age is I can usually pull the "yeah but what were you like at my age?" card lol.

The misunderstanding with self inflicted though il admit, I have the concepts, I lack the prose to properly give them justice without proper probing, so I tend to.just assert something and let "the wolves" coax out the reasoning

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08-12-2014, 04:45 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(08-12-2014 04:20 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(08-12-2014 04:05 PM)tear151 Wrote:  On the bright side raising an egoist child doesnt leave much room for teenage rebellion Tongue
Yes, exactly. If you are 15 or 18, you've done well to think of these things.
I've considered this myself. If my kids are already making their own decisions then they don't need to rebel from me once they reach the teenage self assured enlightenment period. LOL

(08-12-2014 04:08 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  I'm pretty sure that children learn empathy by mimicking adults. Aren't you worried about them growing up thinking that their role-model is capable of murder? Not trying to sound offensive in any way.
Smile, no, that's a great call.
My girls know that I am silly. Top of the silly class. Mum on the other hand is failing silly class.

Oh god my self assured enlightenment was 13-15, it was awful, I was a Marxist and everything

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08-12-2014, 04:48 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(08-12-2014 12:03 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Most atheists are completely clueless as to how the concept of morality has been understand and developed historically. They don't understand how much the foundations of morality which many of us take for granted, has been dependent on a teleological view of life, and once that's been removed, morality becomes a sort of taboo, an incoherent mess when speaking of it conceived without this sort of foundation in mind.

As if you did ? Care to give us a short summary of where Christian morality came from and how it related to Hebrew culture, and where the Hebrew culture got their morality ?

Again, I want to see a poll of ALL atheists, since you seem to be able to report on "most atheists", or how EXACTLY you know what you claim to know. (You wouldn't just be a blowhard now, would you ?)

(08-12-2014 12:03 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  When atheists try and recreate a foundation, they typically play fast and loose.

How about you support that and provide 10 examples, since you seem to know so much about what atheists do.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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08-12-2014, 04:56 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(08-12-2014 03:14 PM)tear151 Wrote:  
(08-12-2014 02:59 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  I like morality reject as relic of god..... I cqn use that! LOL

I think the misunderstanding (This is my fault entirely) was that people thought I was suggesting they change their behaviour, I was just giving a more... consistent way to describe it without calling on hard to define concepts. I said it earlier. There's a bastardisation of the poem calling immigrants to the statue of liberty I used, in regards to "subjective morality" and "secular humanism"

“The disillusioned refuse of your emptying churches.
Send these, the Godless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift amnesty to the nihilistically bounded”

I know it's bad, I'm not a poet by any means, but the quality of the poetry is irrelevant really, it's the idea behind it, I hope you can see that idea, nihilism is scary, but it's actually quite easy to get out of it when you stop asking why? What is the meaning? Why should I act in the certain way... and you just turn around and go

wait... if there's no meaning... if the universe doesn't care about me... if I'm fundamentally insignificant then... then... oh my goodness, that's it! WHY THE FUCK NOT! EUREKA!

sorry I have a tendency to repeat myself Tongue

I think I may have called you a troll earlier and I apologize. But I am still wondering if you are asking this for yourself, or if you are asking this of others for the sake of discussion.

Morality does not need a divine component. We are social animals. And decisions that benefit the collective, more often than not, benefit the individual as well. One collective morality may go against those of another. But as a species there has always been an effort to make a better whole.

The lack of a divinely inspired moral compass should not give anyone a carte blanche to walk around eating babies. Because they think it's OK...and they won't get spanked by their magical sky daddy, because he doesn't exist. The rest of us will spank you. Spank you very much.

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08-12-2014, 04:57 PM (This post was last modified: 08-12-2014 05:04 PM by tear151.)
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(08-12-2014 04:48 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(08-12-2014 12:03 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Most atheists are completely clueless as to how the concept of morality has been understand and developed historically. They don't understand how much the foundations of morality which many of us take for granted, has been dependent on a teleological view of life, and once that's been removed, morality becomes a sort of taboo, an incoherent mess when speaking of it conceived without this sort of foundation in mind.

As if you did ? Care to give us a short summary of where Christian morality came from and how it related to Hebrew culture, and where the Hebrew culture got their morality ?

Again, I want to see a poll of ALL atheists, since you seem to be able to report on "most atheists", or how EXACTLY you know what you claim to know. (You wouldn't just be a blowhard now, would you ?)

(08-12-2014 12:03 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  When atheists try and recreate a foundation, they typically play fast and loose.

How about you support that and provide 10 examples, since you seem to know so much about what atheists do.

Christian ethics were a reaction to the ethics of the greeks and the roman empire. The Poor felt oppressed, had a system of ethics taught to them that meant that not only were they suffering, they were pathetic.

The poor of the empire (Originating in a culture very talented for simplistic desert folk religion) reacted to this by producing it's own code of ethics, they put "God on the cross", they made they're suffering the new virtue, Meekness the new glory, Wealth prevented one from getting into some glorious afterlife, and that they could find salvation in this servant king, the God of and by the poor. That's why it was so appealing to the poor, this populism the new testament presented was very attractive to roman slaves, and it spread like wildfire, even spreading some of those on top, who being told they too were pathetic before God, converted, eventually making christianity Europe's dominant force, there was a reason to believe in it that was far more effective at spreading than the greek pantheon was.

This kind of collapsed when the church became the establishment and slowly started to come up with things like indulgences and generally move toward a system based on aristocracy, because they had power over the doctrine (Because in an act of genius they made it inaccessible to anyone but the establishment) and slowly but surely it morphed back into a morality that benefited the rich. This aristocratic bastardised christianity of divine right, now changed to fit a middle class "meritocrat" who claims his hard work gives him the privileges to his wealth that in the past people called on "divine right" for.

Thus, the almost oxymoronic, christian right.

This isn't original, it's just me expanding a bit on nietzsche.

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08-12-2014, 04:58 PM (This post was last modified: 08-12-2014 05:03 PM by tear151.)
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(08-12-2014 04:56 PM)The Drake Wrote:  
(08-12-2014 03:14 PM)tear151 Wrote:  I think the misunderstanding (This is my fault entirely) was that people thought I was suggesting they change their behaviour, I was just giving a more... consistent way to describe it without calling on hard to define concepts. I said it earlier. There's a bastardisation of the poem calling immigrants to the statue of liberty I used, in regards to "subjective morality" and "secular humanism"

“The disillusioned refuse of your emptying churches.
Send these, the Godless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift amnesty to the nihilistically bounded”

I know it's bad, I'm not a poet by any means, but the quality of the poetry is irrelevant really, it's the idea behind it, I hope you can see that idea, nihilism is scary, but it's actually quite easy to get out of it when you stop asking why? What is the meaning? Why should I act in the certain way... and you just turn around and go

wait... if there's no meaning... if the universe doesn't care about me... if I'm fundamentally insignificant then... then... oh my goodness, that's it! WHY THE FUCK NOT! EUREKA!

sorry I have a tendency to repeat myself Tongue

I think I may have called you a troll earlier and I apologize. But I am still wondering if you are asking this for yourself, or if you are asking this of others for the sake of discussion.

Morality does not need a divine component. We are social animals. And decisions that benefit the collective, more often than not, benefit the individual as well. One collective morality may go against those of another. But as a species there has always been an effort to make a better whole.

The lack of a divinely inspired moral compass should not give anyone a carte blanche to walk around eating babies. Because they think it's OK...and they won't get spanked by their magical sky daddy, because he doesn't exist. The rest of us will spank you. Spank you very much.

Exactly, but that doesn't require some standard of morals, simply not wanting to get spanked is enough, you don't have to make some standard of morals to replace the one that God used to give you, just let it go, embrace your freedom from any codes or laws given to anyone but yourself!]

"You don't need God to be moral"

I take it further

"You don't need morals to live a fulfilling life or have friends, self interest get's you far enough"

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08-12-2014, 05:05 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(08-12-2014 03:14 PM)tear151 Wrote:  
(08-12-2014 02:59 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  I like morality reject as relic of god..... I cqn use that! LOL

I think the misunderstanding (This is my fault entirely) was that people thought I was suggesting they change their behaviour, I was just giving a more... consistent way to describe it without calling on hard to define concepts. I said it earlier. There's a bastardisation of the poem calling immigrants to the statue of liberty I used, in regards to "subjective morality" and "secular humanism"

“The disillusioned refuse of your emptying churches.
Send these, the Godless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift amnesty to the nihilistically bounded”

I know it's bad, I'm not a poet by any means, but the quality of the poetry is irrelevant really, it's the idea behind it, I hope you can see that idea, nihilism is scary, but it's actually quite easy to get out of it when you stop asking why? What is the meaning? Why should I act in the certain way... and you just turn around and go

wait... if there's no meaning... if the universe doesn't care about me... if I'm fundamentally insignificant then... then... oh my goodness, that's it! WHY THE FUCK NOT! EUREKA!

sorry I have a tendency to repeat myself Tongue

Yeah... I'm gonna just stick to the last paragraph part.....the eureka is good!

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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