Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
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06-12-2014, 06:47 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(06-12-2014 06:29 PM)tear151 Wrote:  I am amoral, I simply follow my will, my drives, my urges, I am an irrational agent that uses rationality to get what I want, the reasons for my behaviour are decided by the will.

NOTE: I am not saying that this is good or bad, simply because I will, as the will is what drives humans to do anything, it doesn't need to be justified, it just is, however the will is complex, most wills are manifestations of other, more fundamental drives like the sex drive and hunger and perhaps a nietzschean will to power. I reject empathy because I can actively reduce it to achieve the fundamental will, being held back by guilt doesn't benefit me

The people in this thread argue their morality is subjective, I simply don't believe them, if I went and stabbed someone they'd get angry, they'd tell me it was morally wrong, this subjective morality only exists in the confines of forums, for everyone who accepts morals will invariably force them on others, will expect others to follow maxims like don't kill, don't steal, as if these things are objectively bad, but what justifies such an odd assertion without God?

So how is that not a subjective, emotionally motivated stance on morality?

And again: How would a god make any morality objective?

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06-12-2014, 06:51 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(06-12-2014 06:29 PM)tear151 Wrote:  I am amoral, I simply follow my will, my drives, my urges, I am an irrational agent that uses rationality to get what I want, the reasons for my behaviour are decided by the will.

This could get you killed.

Quote:NOTE: I am not saying that this is good or bad, simply because I will, as the will is what drives humans to do anything, it doesn't need to be justified, it just is, however the will is complex, most wills are manifestations of other, more fundamental drives like the sex drive and hunger and perhaps a nietzschean will to power. I reject empathy because I can actively reduce it to achieve the fundamental will, being held back by guilt doesn't benefit me

What do you mean you reject it? Do you disbelieve it? Do you feel it and ignore it?

Quote:The people in this thread argue their morality is subjective, I simply don't believe them, if I went and stabbed someone they'd get angry, they'd tell me it was morally wrong, this subjective morality only exists in the confines of forums, for everyone who accepts morals will invariably force them on others, will expect others to follow maxims like don't kill, don't steal, as if these things are objectively bad, but what justifies such an odd assertion without God?

You are conflating 'subjective' with 'personal and arbitrary'. Subjective means not objective, that there is no standard external to humans.

Subjective means we make it up. The important word being 'we'. Morals are internalized rules for behaving toward other people and therefore embody reciprocity.

Quote:I run a page on facebook, I'll include a comic i made for it, it's far more... punchy and short

https://www.facebook.com/149183392441203...9e20df5067

(This was aimed at matt Dillahunty)

Your cartoon is absurd.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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06-12-2014, 06:52 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
All humans have the same source of morality regardless of label. Evolution. The same reason human will mourn their dead, is the same reason your dog will protect you. The same reason an elephant mourns it's dead.

"atheist" merely means "off" on god claims. It is not a moral code, club or loyalty oath. The word by itself does not address the individual atheist's ability to be cruel or compassionate. Our evolution as a species will always display the same range of actions regardless of labels.

The only thing one could argue as an average, is that ON AVERAGE atheists view the world in natural terms. There are atheists I have met that have their own woo and conspiracy crap. have met atheists who do not educate themselves. I have met atheists whom I do not agree with on economics. I have run into online atheists who have an Ayn Rand view on economics and other Che "get rid of the private sector" supporters.

"Atheist" is not a moral code. What makes human behavior, good or bad, happen is in our species.

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06-12-2014, 06:53 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(06-12-2014 06:47 PM)Stuffed_Assumption_Meringue Wrote:  
(06-12-2014 06:29 PM)tear151 Wrote:  I am amoral, I simply follow my will, my drives, my urges, I am an irrational agent that uses rationality to get what I want, the reasons for my behaviour are decided by the will.

NOTE: I am not saying that this is good or bad, simply because I will, as the will is what drives humans to do anything, it doesn't need to be justified, it just is, however the will is complex, most wills are manifestations of other, more fundamental drives like the sex drive and hunger and perhaps a nietzschean will to power. I reject empathy because I can actively reduce it to achieve the fundamental will, being held back by guilt doesn't benefit me

The people in this thread argue their morality is subjective, I simply don't believe them, if I went and stabbed someone they'd get angry, they'd tell me it was morally wrong, this subjective morality only exists in the confines of forums, for everyone who accepts morals will invariably force them on others, will expect others to follow maxims like don't kill, don't steal, as if these things are objectively bad, but what justifies such an odd assertion without God?

So how is that not a subjective, emotionally motivated stance on morality?

And again: How would a god make any morality objective?

I just don't accept it, any position of morality which tells me that I should stop what I'm doing because I'm immoral is necessarily an objective claim because you are trying to apply it to others. My stance on morality is merely an application of occam's razor in regards to achieving the will.

A subjective morality is "You stabbed someone, I find that to be wrong, but you don't, that's ok, morality is subjective". Now who seriously believes that?

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06-12-2014, 06:54 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(06-12-2014 06:44 PM)tear151 Wrote:  
(06-12-2014 06:29 PM)Chas Wrote:  There is no "intrinsically moral" since there is no absolute morality.

The closest thing we have is our evolved sense of basic morality.

Which I ignore, is there anything wrong with that? Why must that basic morality be followed?

Because not following it will likely harm you. If you cross people, they get angry.

You'd like LaVeyan Satanism - it's sociopathy in funny costumes.

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06-12-2014, 06:56 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
I'd like to break down your question if you wouldn't mind indulging me: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?

The most important word in your question is not "morals" but rather "basis." That is a loaded word because there are so many connotations.

It can mean :
• the justification for or reasoning behind something
• the system or principles according to which an activity or process is carried on, and ...
• the underlying support or foundation for an idea, argument or process

So, are atheists (I'm not including you in this group despite you using the word WE) REALLY "justified" or have a "reason" to be moral? Let's see, do I want to kill someone? No. Why? Because it will cause me and my victim detriment and we both wouldn't like that. I think I'm justified and have a reason to approach murder with morals.

Would this same example follow for definition No. 2? Sure, a moral system and moral principles would still help me decide that I don't want to kill someone, and I in turn would hope that person in my evolved society would feel the same way.

How about No. 3? Is the Golden Rule the underlying support or foundation for the ideal of morality and does it fit my example? You bet your sophomoric attempt at the Socratic Method it does. (By the way, for a philosophy student you have a lot to learn about the Socratic Method, must be one of them fancy community colleges.)

The fact that you use words such as "intrinsically" in your posts means you're suggesting we need to be born with morals and the only way we can do that is to have them implanted by some objective creator. Sorry, but morals are learned.

So, while you claim to be here for another purpose, using your amoral argument as your smoke screen, I contend you blew your cover in your opening line. You are just some bored lonely college troll who can't get a date much less understand what circular arguments are, and you are here to drag that old chestnut out from under the rock we so aptly buried it beneath, and if that's the case, just read older posts on this very subject and pick up the personals at your student center.

Let the real thinkers on here get to more important subjects such as the flow rate of ketchup on imported china and whether god is a woman.

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06-12-2014, 07:00 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(06-12-2014 06:56 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  I'd like to break down your question if you wouldn't mind indulging me: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?

The most important word in your question is not "morals" but rather "basis." That is a loaded word because there are so many connotations.

It can mean :
• the justification for or reasoning behind something
• the system or principles according to which an activity or process is carried on, and ...
• the underlying support or foundation for an idea, argument or process

So, are atheists (I'm not including you in this group despite you using the word WE) REALLY "justified" or have a "reason" to be moral? Let's see, do I want to kill someone? No. Why? Because it will cause me and my victim detriment and we both wouldn't like that. I think I'm justified and have a reason to approach murder with morals.

Would this same example follow for definition No. 2? Sure, a moral system and moral principles would still help me decide that I don't want to kill someone, and I in turn would hope that person in my evolved society would feel the same way.

How about No. 3? Is the Golden Rule the underlying support or foundation for the ideal of morality and does it fit my example? You bet your sophomoric attempt at the Socratic Method it does. (By the way, for a philosophy student you have a lot to learn about the Socratic Method, must be one of them fancy community colleges.)

The fact that you use words such as "intrinsically" in your posts means you're suggesting we need to be born with morals and the only way we can do that is to have them implanted by some objective creator. Sorry, but morals are learned.

So, while you claim to be here for another purpose, using your amoral argument as your smoke screen, I contend you blew your cover in your opening line. You are just some bored lonely college troll who can't get a date much less understand what circular arguments are, and you are here to drag that old chestnut out from under the rock we so aptly buried it beneath, and if that's the case, just read older posts on this very subject and pick up the personals at your student center.

Let the real thinkers on here get to more important subjects such as the flow rate of ketchup on imported china and whether god is a woman.

Do you work at odeon?

because you sure are projecting.

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06-12-2014, 07:01 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(06-12-2014 06:54 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(06-12-2014 06:44 PM)tear151 Wrote:  Which I ignore, is there anything wrong with that? Why must that basic morality be followed?

Because not following it will likely harm you. If you cross people, they get angry.

You'd like LaVeyan Satanism - it's sociopathy in funny costumes.

Yes, I follow it to not get harmed, not because I believe it.

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06-12-2014, 07:02 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(06-12-2014 06:51 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(06-12-2014 06:29 PM)tear151 Wrote:  I am amoral, I simply follow my will, my drives, my urges, I am an irrational agent that uses rationality to get what I want, the reasons for my behaviour are decided by the will.

This could get you killed.

Quote:NOTE: I am not saying that this is good or bad, simply because I will, as the will is what drives humans to do anything, it doesn't need to be justified, it just is, however the will is complex, most wills are manifestations of other, more fundamental drives like the sex drive and hunger and perhaps a nietzschean will to power. I reject empathy because I can actively reduce it to achieve the fundamental will, being held back by guilt doesn't benefit me

What do you mean you reject it? Do you disbelieve it? Do you feel it and ignore it?

Quote:The people in this thread argue their morality is subjective, I simply don't believe them, if I went and stabbed someone they'd get angry, they'd tell me it was morally wrong, this subjective morality only exists in the confines of forums, for everyone who accepts morals will invariably force them on others, will expect others to follow maxims like don't kill, don't steal, as if these things are objectively bad, but what justifies such an odd assertion without God?

You are conflating 'subjective' with 'personal and arbitrary'. Subjective means not objective, that there is no standard external to humans.

Subjective means we make it up. The important word being 'we'. Morals are internalized rules for behaving toward other people and therefore embody reciprocity.

Quote:I run a page on facebook, I'll include a comic i made for it, it's far more... punchy and short

https://www.facebook.com/149183392441203...9e20df5067

(This was aimed at matt Dillahunty)

Your cartoon is absurd.

If it's not objective it is personal and arbitrary, I refuse to accept personal and arbitrary things, and no it doesn't get me killed, I conform to moral norms when it benefits me.

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06-12-2014, 07:03 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(06-12-2014 07:01 PM)tear151 Wrote:  
(06-12-2014 06:54 PM)Chas Wrote:  Because not following it will likely harm you. If you cross people, they get angry.

You'd like LaVeyan Satanism - it's sociopathy in funny costumes.

Yes, I follow it to not get harmed, not because I believe it.

Except following it will likely get you harmed, so there's that.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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