Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
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06-12-2014, 07:04 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(06-12-2014 07:03 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(06-12-2014 07:01 PM)tear151 Wrote:  Yes, I follow it to not get harmed, not because I believe it.

Except following it will likely get you harmed, so there's that.

I conform to moral norms when it benefits me, I ignore them when it doesn't.

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06-12-2014, 07:06 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(06-12-2014 06:44 PM)tear151 Wrote:  
(06-12-2014 06:27 PM)Chas Wrote:  Because you wouldn't have it done to yourself.

That doesn't make any sense, why should I care?

It makes sense in a society. If you harm people, you will get harmed.

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06-12-2014, 07:07 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(06-12-2014 07:04 PM)tear151 Wrote:  
(06-12-2014 07:03 PM)Chas Wrote:  Except following it will likely get you harmed, so there's that.

I conform to moral norms when it benefits me, I ignore them when it doesn't.

Then you are a sociopath. Drinking Beverage

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06-12-2014, 07:07 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(06-12-2014 06:56 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  I'd like to break down your question if you wouldn't mind indulging me: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?

The most important word in your question is not "morals" but rather "basis." That is a loaded word because there are so many connotations.

It can mean :
• the justification for or reasoning behind something
• the system or principles according to which an activity or process is carried on, and ...
• the underlying support or foundation for an idea, argument or process

So, are atheists (I'm not including you in this group despite you using the word WE) REALLY "justified" or have a "reason" to be moral? Let's see, do I want to kill someone? No. Why? Because it will cause me and my victim detriment and we both wouldn't like that. I think I'm justified and have a reason to approach murder with morals.

Would this same example follow for definition No. 2? Sure, a moral system and moral principles would still help me decide that I don't want to kill someone, and I in turn would hope that person in my evolved society would feel the same way.

How about No. 3? Is the Golden Rule the underlying support or foundation for the ideal of morality and does it fit my example? You bet your sophomoric attempt at the Socratic Method it does. (By the way, for a philosophy student you have a lot to learn about the Socratic Method, must be one of them fancy community colleges.)

The fact that you use words such as "intrinsically" in your posts means you're suggesting we need to be born with morals and the only way we can do that is to have them implanted by some objective creator. Sorry, but morals are learned.

So, while you claim to be here for another purpose, using your amoral argument as your smoke screen, I contend you blew your cover in your opening line. You are just some bored lonely college troll who can't get a date much less understand what circular arguments are, and you are here to drag that old chestnut out from under the rock we so aptly buried it beneath, and if that's the case, just read older posts on this very subject and pick up the personals at your student center.

Let the real thinkers on here get to more important subjects such as the flow rate of ketchup on imported china and whether god is a woman.

In all seriousness, if murder doesn't cause me displeasure, and I have something else that I want that requires murder, I see no reason not to do it. I'm not trying to be shocking, I simply hold a position held by many people who are lets face it morons who think they are cool. You've probably got the image of a basement dwelling anime watching metal listening edgey kid who shouts "fuck the system". That is not me.

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06-12-2014, 07:08 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(06-12-2014 07:02 PM)tear151 Wrote:  
(06-12-2014 06:51 PM)Chas Wrote:  This could get you killed.


What do you mean you reject it? Do you disbelieve it? Do you feel it and ignore it?


You are conflating 'subjective' with 'personal and arbitrary'. Subjective means not objective, that there is no standard external to humans.

Subjective means we make it up. The important word being 'we'. Morals are internalized rules for behaving toward other people and therefore embody reciprocity.


Your cartoon is absurd.

If it's not objective it is personal and arbitrary, I refuse to accept personal and arbitrary things, and no it doesn't get me killed, I conform to moral norms when it benefits me.

I give up. You are willfully ignorant.

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06-12-2014, 07:08 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(06-12-2014 07:07 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(06-12-2014 07:04 PM)tear151 Wrote:  I conform to moral norms when it benefits me, I ignore them when it doesn't.

Then you are a sociopath. Drinking Beverage

and what is wrong with that?

"I don't believe in god"

then you are an atheist Drinking Beverage I am actively arguing for sociopathy basically.

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06-12-2014, 07:10 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(06-12-2014 07:08 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(06-12-2014 07:02 PM)tear151 Wrote:  If it's not objective it is personal and arbitrary, I refuse to accept personal and arbitrary things, and no it doesn't get me killed, I conform to moral norms when it benefits me.

I give up. You are willfully ignorant.

Well I'm also happy and actively following a non-moral life, it's working quite well for me, if what has brought me fulfillment is willful ignorance so be it, the same would be said to you by any clergyman or philosopher of the religious old order.

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06-12-2014, 07:10 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(06-12-2014 07:08 PM)tear151 Wrote:  
(06-12-2014 07:07 PM)Chas Wrote:  Then you are a sociopath. Drinking Beverage

and what is wrong with that?

"I don't believe in god"

then you are an atheist Drinking Beverage

Sociopaths are dangerous to others.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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06-12-2014, 07:12 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(06-12-2014 07:10 PM)tear151 Wrote:  
(06-12-2014 07:08 PM)Chas Wrote:  I give up. You are willfully ignorant.

Well I'm also happy and actively following a non-moral life, it's working quite well for me, if what has brought me fulfillment is willful ignorance so be it, the same would be said to you by any clergyman or philosopher of the religious old order.

No, your willful ignorance is in refusing to understand what anyone here has said.
You keep ignoring the fact that your understanding of the word 'subjective' is simply wrong.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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06-12-2014, 07:12 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(06-12-2014 07:10 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(06-12-2014 07:08 PM)tear151 Wrote:  and what is wrong with that?

"I don't believe in god"

then you are an atheist Drinking Beverage

Sociopaths are dangerous to others.

I don't care about others, my position is entirely amoral, people are means to an end of my enjoyment, not ends in themselves.

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