Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
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06-12-2014, 07:14 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(06-12-2014 07:12 PM)tear151 Wrote:  
(06-12-2014 07:10 PM)Chas Wrote:  Sociopaths are dangerous to others.

I don't care about others, my position is entirely amoral

By society's standards, it is immoral.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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06-12-2014, 07:14 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(06-12-2014 07:12 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(06-12-2014 07:10 PM)tear151 Wrote:  Well I'm also happy and actively following a non-moral life, it's working quite well for me, if what has brought me fulfillment is willful ignorance so be it, the same would be said to you by any clergyman or philosopher of the religious old order.

No, your willful ignorance is in refusing to understand what anyone here has said.
You keep ignoring the fact that your understanding of the word 'subjective' is simply wrong.

Subjective "based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions."

arbitrary "based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system"

What is the difference? Your tastes and personal feelings are arbitrary, your morality is a subjective house built on arbitrary foundation.

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06-12-2014, 07:16 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(06-12-2014 07:14 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(06-12-2014 07:12 PM)tear151 Wrote:  I don't care about others, my position is entirely amoral

By society's standards, it is immoral.

Argument ad populum

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06-12-2014, 07:19 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(06-12-2014 07:00 PM)tear151 Wrote:  
(06-12-2014 06:56 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  I'd like to break down your question if you wouldn't mind indulging me: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?

The most important word in your question is not "morals" but rather "basis." That is a loaded word because there are so many connotations.

It can mean :
• the justification for or reasoning behind something
• the system or principles according to which an activity or process is carried on, and ...
• the underlying support or foundation for an idea, argument or process

So, are atheists (I'm not including you in this group despite you using the word WE) REALLY "justified" or have a "reason" to be moral? Let's see, do I want to kill someone? No. Why? Because it will cause me and my victim detriment and we both wouldn't like that. I think I'm justified and have a reason to approach murder with morals.

Would this same example follow for definition No. 2? Sure, a moral system and moral principles would still help me decide that I don't want to kill someone, and I in turn would hope that person in my evolved society would feel the same way.

How about No. 3? Is the Golden Rule the underlying support or foundation for the ideal of morality and does it fit my example? You bet your sophomoric attempt at the Socratic Method it does. (By the way, for a philosophy student you have a lot to learn about the Socratic Method, must be one of them fancy community colleges.)

The fact that you use words such as "intrinsically" in your posts means you're suggesting we need to be born with morals and the only way we can do that is to have them implanted by some objective creator. Sorry, but morals are learned.

So, while you claim to be here for another purpose, using your amoral argument as your smoke screen, I contend you blew your cover in your opening line. You are just some bored lonely college troll who can't get a date much less understand what circular arguments are, and you are here to drag that old chestnut out from under the rock we so aptly buried it beneath, and if that's the case, just read older posts on this very subject and pick up the personals at your student center.

Let the real thinkers on here get to more important subjects such as the flow rate of ketchup on imported china and whether god is a woman.

Do you work at odeon?

because you sure are projecting.

Cute, but ridiculous ideas (and people) deserve ridicule. You're being obtuse, and I might add, you haven't denied any of my characterizations. Consider

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06-12-2014, 07:21 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(06-12-2014 07:19 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  
(06-12-2014 07:00 PM)tear151 Wrote:  Do you work at odeon?

because you sure are projecting.

Cute, but ridiculous ideas (and people) deserve ridicule. You're being obtuse, and I might add, you haven't denied any of my characterizations. Consider

Consider them denied, I've had plenty of relationships, I'm, happy, healthy, and working on a degree in physics and philosophy at manchester university, I'm known for being a socialite and an eccentric. It's irrelevant to the question however, I'm not being deliberately obtuse here, I simply reject the foundations you believe to be so obvious like the golden rule.

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06-12-2014, 07:21 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(06-12-2014 07:14 PM)tear151 Wrote:  
(06-12-2014 07:12 PM)Chas Wrote:  No, your willful ignorance is in refusing to understand what anyone here has said.
You keep ignoring the fact that your understanding of the word 'subjective' is simply wrong.

Subjective "based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions."

arbitrary "based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system"

What is the difference? Your tastes and personal feelings are arbitrary, your morality is a subjective house built on arbitrary foundation.

No, it is a result of negotiation with the rest of society. Morality is about how we treat others.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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06-12-2014, 07:23 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(06-12-2014 07:16 PM)tear151 Wrote:  
(06-12-2014 07:14 PM)Chas Wrote:  By society's standards, it is immoral.

Argument ad populum

Nope. It is the very definition of morals and ethics. It is how we deal with others, hence society's reaction to one's behavior is defined by society.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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06-12-2014, 07:26 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(06-12-2014 07:23 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(06-12-2014 07:16 PM)tear151 Wrote:  Argument ad populum

Nope. It is the very definition of morals and ethics. It is how we deal with others, hence society's reaction to one's behavior is defined by society.

Then I have no reason to accept it, I behave solely as an enlightened egoist.

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06-12-2014, 07:27 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(06-12-2014 07:21 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(06-12-2014 07:14 PM)tear151 Wrote:  Subjective "based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions."

arbitrary "based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system"

What is the difference? Your tastes and personal feelings are arbitrary, your morality is a subjective house built on arbitrary foundation.

No, it is a result of negotiation with the rest of society. Morality is about how we treat others.

In that case my "morality" is "Treat those who are useful to you in ways that maximise their resourcefulness to you", but I don't think you'd allow me to call that moral.

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06-12-2014, 07:31 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(06-12-2014 07:21 PM)tear151 Wrote:  
(06-12-2014 07:19 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  Cute, but ridiculous ideas (and people) deserve ridicule. You're being obtuse, and I might add, you haven't denied any of my characterizations. Consider

Consider them denied, I've had plenty of relationships, I'm, happy, healthy, and working on a degree in physics and philosophy at manchester university, I'm known for being a socialite and an eccentric. It's irrelevant to the question however, I'm not being deliberately obtuse here, I simply reject the foundations you believe to be so obvious like the golden rule.
Fine, I'll let the troll thing and insults go for now. That's not my MO anyway, I was just feeling frisky.

The foundations are only obvious because we have been conditioned as a whole to understand the benefit of the Golden Rule, and as a society we choose to move forward. Are there warped individuals who don't subscribe to our societal acceptance of what morality is? Sure. But that doesn't mean the morals aren't there or beneficial. It most definitely doesn't mean a god put them there.

And I'm not saying that mob rule is correct, I'm saying mutually beneficial societies flourish much more than a room full of homicidal cats. It doesn't take a philosophy degree from Manchester to see that. Your social experiment is a colossal failure.

Check out my now-defunct atheism blog. It's just a blog, no ads, no revenue, no gods.
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