Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
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06-12-2014, 07:34 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(06-12-2014 07:26 PM)tear151 Wrote:  
(06-12-2014 07:23 PM)Chas Wrote:  Nope. It is the very definition of morals and ethics. It is how we deal with others, hence society's reaction to one's behavior is defined by society.

Then I have no reason to accept it, I behave solely as an enlightened egoist.

But yet the reason you do accept it (remember, actions speak louder than words, I'm assuming you've never actually murdered anyone) is because of the numerous things listed in this thread already. You are playing word games, and you're not entirely wrong, you're just an asshole.

Everyone is an egoist, and most behave within socially accepted norms because doing so ensures the survival of your ego. This is not a hard concept to understand.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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06-12-2014, 07:40 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(06-12-2014 07:31 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  
(06-12-2014 07:21 PM)tear151 Wrote:  Consider them denied, I've had plenty of relationships, I'm, happy, healthy, and working on a degree in physics and philosophy at manchester university, I'm known for being a socialite and an eccentric. It's irrelevant to the question however, I'm not being deliberately obtuse here, I simply reject the foundations you believe to be so obvious like the golden rule.
Fine, I'll let the troll thing and insults go for now. That's not my MO anyway, I was just feeling frisky.

The foundations are only obvious because we have been conditioned as a whole to understand the benefit of the Golden Rule, and as a society we choose to move forward. Are there warped individuals who don't subscribe to our societal acceptance of what morality is? Sure. But that doesn't mean the morals aren't there or beneficial. It most definitely doesn't mean a god put them there.

And I'm not saying that mob rule is correct, I'm saying mutually beneficial societies flourish much more than a room full of homicidal cats. It doesn't take a philosophy degree from Manchester to see that. Your social experiment is a colossal failure.

I don't care about the success of society unless it personally benefits me, again your assumptions like the health of society is inherently good etc. that's what I call in to question (and the faculty grade it highly but my god do they hate every word of it), my philosophy is rather nietzsche-esq. I only care about myself, seriously... that's my belief, it's not simplistic though, having friends is in my interest... the total knowledge of mankind is in my interest, but that is my entirely arbitrary will that values that, nobody else has to, if others don't value such things, I will advocate locking them away for my benefit, they aren't immoral... they simply act counter to my whims and I make sure this isn't allowed by supporting law and order.

Self interest doesn't lead to the kind of state of nature that hobbes envisioned, rational entities basically follow game theory, the law is the thing that forces people down the mutually beneficial path, not because it's moral, because of mutual self interest... empathy exists, but it's another kind of self interest through feeling joy in helping others, you misunderstand what a morality is, it is not a killing and raping fest, those actions don't actually benefit me, partly as I still have some empathy, and an irrational sense of guilty is unpleasant, but partly because what is to be gained in murder? Nothing, only punishment from the crowd, who in their self interest, lock you away. Not because it's right, but because they can.

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06-12-2014, 07:43 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(06-12-2014 07:34 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(06-12-2014 07:26 PM)tear151 Wrote:  Then I have no reason to accept it, I behave solely as an enlightened egoist.

But yet the reason you do accept it (remember, actions speak louder than words, I'm assuming you've never actually murdered anyone) is because of the numerous things listed in this thread already. You are playing word games, and you're not entirely wrong, you're just an asshole.

Everyone is an egoist, and most behave within socially accepted norms because doing so ensures the survival of your ego. This is not a hard concept to understand.

Yes... that is my position... but why call it morality... why think those who help others are any better than those who gain pleasure though hedonism or the pain of people who aren't you... I doubt you're consistent with this view of morals.

With Trayvon Martin, did you say "Zimmerman did not follow social norms, he must be punished" or did you say "Zimmerman is bad, he is a bad person, Trayvon was innocent, this was a travesty". (Or a similar variant depending on your views on the case, this forum is generally liberal I went for that interpretation)

If you went for the second then on an emotional level you don't follow the system you have presented to me.

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06-12-2014, 07:54 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(06-12-2014 07:34 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(06-12-2014 07:26 PM)tear151 Wrote:  Then I have no reason to accept it, I behave solely as an enlightened egoist.

But yet the reason you do accept it (remember, actions speak louder than words, I'm assuming you've never actually murdered anyone) is because of the numerous things listed in this thread already. You are playing word games, and you're not entirely wrong, you're just an asshole.

Everyone is an egoist, and most behave within socially accepted norms because doing so ensures the survival of your ego. This is not a hard concept to understand.

In short, im saying egoism is the only consistent moral position to an atheist.

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06-12-2014, 08:11 PM (This post was last modified: 06-12-2014 08:48 PM by TheGulegon.)
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(06-12-2014 07:04 PM)tear151 Wrote:  
(06-12-2014 07:03 PM)Chas Wrote:  Except following it will likely get you harmed, so there's that.

I conform to moral norms when it benefits me, I ignore them when it doesn't.

Then don't be surprised when (normally non-complete-piece-of-dogshit) members of a society that frowns on things like murder for personal profit show not a shred of remorse, or any other emotion, as you're dipped in honey & thrown into a pit of hungry wolverines, after YOUR usefulness to IT is no more!

I suspect the few friends I have that would go out on a limb to convince the rest of our society mates to keep me around, wouldn't if they knew I'd throw away my relationship with them as soon as their usefulness to me ended!

Good luck with all that, asshole!

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06-12-2014, 08:12 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(06-12-2014 04:18 PM)tear151 Wrote:  Throughout atheist literature there's a worrying tendency to hand wave to the question of secular morals, sweeping statements like "The golden rules still makes sense" or "We just know whether things are moral or not".

Really ? Then you can easily name 10 of those works of literature, with quotes, and chapters and page.

(06-12-2014 04:18 PM)tear151 Wrote:  My worry is that all arguments for objective morality sounds very VERY similar in form to arguments for God, such as "it's immediately obvious" "We have a faculty within us that discerns it" "It's simply a priori". It seems ridiculous to me that a universe (That without God is entirely indifferent to us) has any universal moral laws within it...

Why are you worried about "objective morality" at all ?
No universe has any moral laws. Human ethics developed on a number of SUBJECTIVE factors, such as minimization of pain, that which promotes success and survival of the group in question, and there are many different systems humans cook up in an attempt to promote those goals.

(06-12-2014 04:18 PM)tear151 Wrote:  This then leads to the subjective morals, but these too have a certain hypocrisy to them, if morality depends on the person, what legitimacy do you have to attempt to enforce it on the world,

Who is doing that ?

(06-12-2014 04:18 PM)tear151 Wrote:  Basically, I have come to a position of amoralism, and just like atheism, the burden of proof isn't on me, it's on you

Bullshit. I don't give a crap what you do unless you try to hurt me or someone else. I don't have to even talk to you.

Before anyone starts a conversation, how about you explain to us what EXACTLY is the difference between yer reg'lar "thought" and your "deep thought" you say you are engaged in.

Facepalm

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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06-12-2014, 08:17 PM (This post was last modified: 06-12-2014 08:22 PM by tear151.)
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(06-12-2014 08:11 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  
(06-12-2014 07:04 PM)tear151 Wrote:  I conform to moral norms when it benefits me, I ignore them when it doesn't.

Then don't be surprised when (normally non-complete-piece-of-dogshit) members of a society that frowns on things like murder for personal profit show not a shred of remorse, or any other emotion, as your dipped in honey & thrown into a pit of hungry wolverines, after YOUR usefulness to IT is no more!

I suspect the few friends I have that would go out on a limb to convince the rest of our society mates to keep me around, wouldn't if they knew I'd throw away my relationship with them as soon as their usefulness to me ended!

Good luck with all that, asshole!

If that happened the situation would no longer be profitable, so I wouldnt do it. Strange how your axiom murder is bad breaks down when someone comes along who breaks the contract... Ironically that reaction is exactly what is to be expected without morals, I accept this.

I mean... I would see my death as unpleasant to me but nothing else, you would cry justice and apparently show joy as the wolverines chewed up my fresh carcus... How... Consistent of you.

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06-12-2014, 08:20 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(06-12-2014 08:12 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(06-12-2014 04:18 PM)tear151 Wrote:  Throughout atheist literature there's a worrying tendency to hand wave to the question of secular morals, sweeping statements like "The golden rules still makes sense" or "We just know whether things are moral or not".

Really ? Then you can easily name 10 of those works of literature, with quotes, and chapters and page.

(06-12-2014 04:18 PM)tear151 Wrote:  My worry is that all arguments for objective morality sounds very VERY similar in form to arguments for God, such as "it's immediately obvious" "We have a faculty within us that discerns it" "It's simply a priori". It seems ridiculous to me that a universe (That without God is entirely indifferent to us) has any universal moral laws within it...

Why are you worried about "objective morality" at all ?
No universe has any moral laws. Human ethics developed on a number of SUBJECTIVE factors, such as minimization of pain, that which promotes success and survival of the group in question, and there are many different systems humans cook up in an attempt to promote those goals.

(06-12-2014 04:18 PM)tear151 Wrote:  This then leads to the subjective morals, but these too have a certain hypocrisy to them, if morality depends on the person, what legitimacy do you have to attempt to enforce it on the world,

Who is doing that ?

(06-12-2014 04:18 PM)tear151 Wrote:  Basically, I have come to a position of amoralism, and just like atheism, the burden of proof isn't on me, it's on you

Bullshit. I don't give a crap what you do unless you try to hurt me or someone else. I don't have to even talk to you.

Before anyone starts a conversation, how about you explain to us what EXACTLY is the difference between yer reg'lar "thought" and your "deep thought" you say you are engaged in.

Facepalm

By literature I mean the general zeitgeist portrayed in stuff in the god delusion, god is not great, matt dillahunty lectures... Etc. Its a general "feeling", a "recurring theme", my brain doesnt have an indexing service that precise.

Ironically your final statenent is what I live by, but again, personal benefit, no.morals needed, there is no difference between thought and deep thought, its simply expressing the ammount of time ive spent on this.

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06-12-2014, 08:24 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
Just a quick question out of curiosity. Sounds like you'd be fine if someone stronger and faster were to kill you for something he wanted. How far am I off?
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06-12-2014, 08:24 PM (This post was last modified: 06-12-2014 08:27 PM by Peebothuhul.)
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
Why do these types of threads/posters always turn up when I'm at work? Not three or four days ago when I was home and bored silly?

Might try and catch up later.

Much cheers to all.
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