Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
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06-12-2014, 08:28 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(06-12-2014 08:24 PM)Clockwork Wrote:  Just a quick question out of curiosity. Sounds like you'd be fine if someone stronger and faster were to kill you for something he wanted. How far am I off?

Thats not a moral question, I dont want to die, thats unpleasant for me, if lie through my teeth and try to convince them to show compassion or make other efforts to stop them. Actually im being a hypocrite by telling people i think this, its not very good for my self interest is it being hated by the majority for my writings XD

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06-12-2014, 08:28 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(06-12-2014 04:18 PM)tear151 Wrote:  Throughout atheist literature there's a worrying tendency to hand wave to the question of secular morals, sweeping statements like "The golden rules still makes sense"

...How is that a hand wave? "I don't want this done to me, therefore I will not to it to others" seems perfectly logical and valid to me.

Popcorn I put more thought into fiction than theists put into reality.
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06-12-2014, 08:29 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(06-12-2014 08:24 PM)Clockwork Wrote:  Just a quick question out of curiosity. Sounds like you'd be fine if someone stronger and faster were to kill you for something he wanted. How far am I off?

I support a legal system though, my own safety

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06-12-2014, 08:30 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(06-12-2014 08:28 PM)CleverUsername Wrote:  
(06-12-2014 04:18 PM)tear151 Wrote:  Throughout atheist literature there's a worrying tendency to hand wave to the question of secular morals, sweeping statements like "The golden rules still makes sense"

...How is that a hand wave? "I don't want this done to me, therefore I will not to it to others" seems perfectly logical and valid to me.

No because I can simply say I dont care about other people, its circular and assumes you are moral anyway.

Its a guiding principle for the already "well intentions", its not really an argument.

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06-12-2014, 08:34 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(06-12-2014 07:43 PM)tear151 Wrote:  Yes... that is my position... but why call it morality..

Fine. Let's call it amoral egoism. It's still the same thing with the same results.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

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06-12-2014, 08:42 PM (This post was last modified: 06-12-2014 08:47 PM by tear151.)
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(06-12-2014 08:34 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(06-12-2014 07:43 PM)tear151 Wrote:  Yes... that is my position... but why call it morality..

Fine. Let's call it amoral egoism. It's still the same thing with the same results.

It has mostly results yes, but there is a big diffrrence between my explanation that its all egoistic, and insisting its "good". However my views lead to a society with no natural rights or moral duty either.

However I still hold if you saw someone rape a child youd cry monster, imply they are disgusting beasts, I simply dont believe your actualy reactions to things match what you are saying to me.

In real life you almost ceetainly behave in a moral absolutist framework, as do I if.I dont catch myself, its somewhat... Innate to behave that way.

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06-12-2014, 08:46 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(06-12-2014 07:40 PM)tear151 Wrote:  Self interest doesn't lead to the kind of state of nature that hobbes envisioned, rational entities basically follow game theory, the law is the thing that forces people down the mutually beneficial path, not because it's moral, because of mutual self interest... empathy exists, but it's another kind of self interest through feeling joy in helping others, you misunderstand what a morality is, it is not a killing and raping fest, those actions don't actually benefit me, partly as I still have some empathy, and an irrational sense of guilty is unpleasant, but partly because what is to be gained in murder? Nothing, only punishment from the crowd, who in their self interest, lock you away. Not because it's right, but because they can.

I think you're dealing with vocabulary semantics. I also think you're being intellectually dishonest. You rail on the fact that you only want to satisfy yourself and only do things that will benefit yourself. But you also mentioned you had plenty of relationships. These are mutually exclusive in that you can't be this selfish prick and have a true relationship, because a real relationship means doing things for other people that THEY want you to do, not because it only makes you happy. That isn't a relationship, it's a dictatorship. So which is it?

I also disagree with your point on murder and rape not benefiting you. I can see how forcing the campus hottie to have sex with you would benefit you. It would get your lonely selfish ass laid and you would enjoy emissions. Are you saying you don't like to have sex? You don't like to ejaculate? Yet you don't rape people, and it's because you have empathy. You don't rape that woman because it is WRONG and you know it.

Also, if killing someone WOULD benefit you, would you do it? I'm sure there are guys walking around campus right now with cash in their pockets. Killing them and dumping their bodies in the woods would benefit you because of the bankroll and it would be one less person to compete with at the quad when you're trying to get into some girl's pants.

So, there's killing two birds with one stone, yet you still don't do it. Is it because you're afraid of the police and ensuing prison term? And where did that fear come from? Societal morals. When we realized the big Sky Daddy and his lake of fire wasn't enough to keep scumbags from doing immoral things we created police, because morally we deemed it important to a better life.

I know you think you have an original point and you want to pat yourself on the back and shock us with your colossal selfishness, but you're just some latte-sipping college punk looking for an argument because you're bored on a Saturday night.

Move on.

Check out my now-defunct atheism blog. It's just a blog, no ads, no revenue, no gods.
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06-12-2014, 08:47 PM
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(06-12-2014 08:24 PM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  Why do these types of threads/posters always turn up when I'm at work? Not three or four days ago when I was home and bored silly?

Might try and catch up later.

Much cheers to all.

It's Christmastime and also a full moon - the religionuts and other nuts are out in force.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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06-12-2014, 08:54 PM (This post was last modified: 06-12-2014 08:58 PM by tear151.)
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(06-12-2014 08:46 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  
(06-12-2014 07:40 PM)tear151 Wrote:  Self interest doesn't lead to the kind of state of nature that hobbes envisioned, rational entities basically follow game theory, the law is the thing that forces people down the mutually beneficial path, not because it's moral, because of mutual self interest... empathy exists, but it's another kind of self interest through feeling joy in helping others, you misunderstand what a morality is, it is not a killing and raping fest, those actions don't actually benefit me, partly as I still have some empathy, and an irrational sense of guilty is unpleasant, but partly because what is to be gained in murder? Nothing, only punishment from the crowd, who in their self interest, lock you away. Not because it's right, but because they can.

I think you're dealing with vocabulary semantics. I also think you're being intellectually dishonest. You rail on the fact that you only want to satisfy yourself and only do things that will benefit yourself. But you also mentioned you had plenty of relationships. These are mutually exclusive in that you can't be this selfish prick and have a true relationship, because a real relationship means doing things for other people that THEY want you to do, not because it only makes you happy. That isn't a relationship, it's a dictatorship. So which is it?

I also disagree with your point on murder and rape not benefiting you. I can see how forcing the campus hottie to have sex with you would benefit you. It would get your lonely selfish ass laid and you would enjoy emissions. Are you saying you don't like to have sex? You don't like to ejaculate? Yet you don't rape people, and it's because you have empathy. You don't rape that woman because it is WRONG and you know it.

Also, if killing someone WOULD benefit you, would you do it? I'm sure there are guys walking around campus right now with cash in their pockets. Killing them and dumping their bodies in the woods would benefit you because of the bankroll and it would be one less person to compete with at the quad when you're trying to get into some girl's pants.

So, there's killing two birds with one stone, yet you still don't do it. Is it because you're afraid of the police and ensuing prison term? And where did that fear come from? Societal morals. When we realized the big Sky Daddy and his lake of fire wasn't enough to keep scumbags from doing immoral things we created police, because morally we deemed it important to a better life.

I know you think you have an original point and you want to pat yourself on the back and shock us with your colossal selfishness, but you're just some latte-sipping college punk looking for an argument because you're bored on a Saturday night.

Move on.

I still have empathy, yes, but like I said... Arbitrary. No I dont want to shock you at all, I mostly.just sit around thinking about this bollocks, I like to have a back and forth with people to develop them further.

My position comes fromy.physics background and my cold rational reasoning, I mostly jyst pretend I hadnt come to.these conclusions because the empty truth burns, it really does, but seeking those burns is the most pleasurable vice. Sorry I mean its the beautiful search for knowledge.

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06-12-2014, 08:55 PM (This post was last modified: 06-12-2014 08:58 PM by TheGulegon.)
RE: Do we as atheists REALLY have any basis for morals?
(06-12-2014 08:17 PM)tear151 Wrote:  
(06-12-2014 08:11 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  Then don't be surprised when (normally non-complete-piece-of-dogshit) members of a society that frowns on things like murder for personal profit show not a shred of remorse, or any other emotion, as your dipped in honey & thrown into a pit of hungry wolverines, after YOUR usefulness to IT is no more!

I suspect the few friends I have that would go out on a limb to convince the rest of our society mates to keep me around, wouldn't if they knew I'd throw away my relationship with them as soon as their usefulness to me ended!

Good luck with all that, asshole!

If that happened the situation would no longer be profitable, so I wouldnt do it. Strange how your axiom murder is bad breaks down when someone comes along who breaks the contract... Ironically that reaction is exactly what is to be expected without morals, I accept this.

I mean... I would see my death as unpleasant to me but nothing else, you would cry justice and apparently show joy as the wolverines chewed up my fresh carcus... How... Consistent of you.

I never said I would enjoy watching you die (though I wouldn't shed any tears either Consider "or any other emotion")! But thanks for putting your own words into my mouth; how... consistent... and observant... of you...
I said you shouldn't be surprised when members of the society whose morals you don't follow when they don't suit you, don't go out of their way to keep you alive, or save your life.

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