Do we have the right to tax people in order to help the poor?
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13-02-2012, 09:37 AM (This post was last modified: 13-02-2012 09:46 AM by germanyt.)
RE: Do we have the right to tax people in order to help the poor?
(12-02-2012 06:36 PM)Stark Raving Wrote:  I've been poor. I mean the real kind of poor. Live in my car poor. Constantly hungry poor. No gas to move my home poor.

It's not something I'm proud of. I am proud that I turned it around though. And I did it with no education. I graduated high school (just barely) and have no formal education beyond that. I hear all the time that I am "the exception to the rule", but since I turned things around, I have mentored several young people, and helped them do the same. It takes hard work and perseverence, but it doesn't require an education.

I'll grant that an education can help, and that it often leads to more monetary wealth, but education does not have to determine whether you are poor or not. Motivation, and a willingness to teach yourself instead of relying on schools can be just as educational. I bring this up not to dispute what anyone is saying, but simply to point out that formal education (ie college, university, etc.) is not the only kind of education.

I own two successful businesses, I own my farm, and will be mortgage free in five years on my modest but new 1400sq ft house. I did that with hard work, and no education.

Again. An individual circumstance. And I'm not talking about higher eduation. I'm talking about high school.

How much do you think high school drop out rates effect poverty? How much do you think poverty would be effected if the drop rate was cut in half? How many people who had just finished high school would be hirable now instead of lining up at the food stamp office? How many of those that didn't finish high school would be in college earning a degree if they had finished? I'm not sure of exact numbers either but I'm curious to know if you agree or diagree that it would have a very significant impact.

As for the recession and inability to find ajob in your field. Yes, times are tough and a lot of people are out of work. But poverty isn't a 2011 or 2012 problem. It's a decades long problem. How many people who were educated on finance, budget, and credit would have bought into the sub-prime mortgage craze in the last 10 years.

I'm telling you man, from home to school, education is the key to solving poverty.
(13-02-2012 09:34 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(13-02-2012 09:29 AM)germanyt Wrote:  Underemployed =/= poverty stricken

As a whole, widespread poverty is a result of poor education.

Education is certainly a large factor, but there are others such as discrimination in hiring and pay inequity. There can also be massive changes due to new technologies; and while you can say that those versed in the old technology and not in the new suffer from an educational deficiency, it is one not of their own making.

Perhaps individuals need to be a little more adaptable. I know I'm just one but if I lost my job today I could take any number of different jobs. Flooring, construction, sales, management, electronics repair. People need to stop complaining when their print advertisement education/experience doesn't get them a job advertising on the internet. Suck it up, find a temp job, take advantage of new educational opportunities, and start over. It's what I'm doing. So is my wife.


Just gonna add that obviously laziness is a problem. I'm not sure if this is just a bad personality trait or a result of poor home training. But the keys to prosperity are available in the class room. Does everyone need to finish school to be successful? No. You could never go to school, grow up on a farm, and be a very successful farmer. But most people can't and don't.

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13-02-2012, 09:51 AM
RE: Do we have the right to tax people in order to help the poor?
(12-02-2012 06:36 PM)Stark Raving Wrote:  I hear all the time that I am "the exception to the rule", but since I turned things around, I have mentored several young people, and helped them do the same.

Several? In Manitoba? That's good. Now, go to Mississippi and mentor all of their unemployed, underemployed and underpaid poor to do the same where they live.
By sheer and utter coincidence, a lot of these poor people are descended from slaves. Not to "play the race card"....

Of-bloody-course it's not about education! It's about the structure of society.

Quote:germanyt:
Your evidence is kind of irrelevant. Sure, an individual and any given time during a recession might not be able to find work in her field.
and this one, too?

Quote: Zat:
To assess the benefit of education in the United States, I recommend studying the following report http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/unemployment-with-tertiary-education-male-percent-of-male-unemployment-wb-data.html

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13-02-2012, 10:01 AM
RE: Do we have the right to tax people in order to help the poor?
(13-02-2012 09:37 AM)germanyt Wrote:  
(13-02-2012 09:34 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(13-02-2012 09:29 AM)germanyt Wrote:  Underemployed =/= poverty stricken

As a whole, widespread poverty is a result of poor education.

Education is certainly a large factor, but there are others such as discrimination in hiring and pay inequity. There can also be massive changes due to new technologies; and while you can say that those versed in the old technology and not in the new suffer from an educational deficiency, it is one not of their own making.

Perhaps individuals need to be a little more adaptable. I know I'm just one but if I lost my job today I could take any number of different jobs. Flooring, construction, sales, management, electronics repair. People need to stop complaining when their print advertisement education/experience doesn't get them a job advertising on the internet. Suck it up, find a temp job, take advantage of new educational opportunities, and start over. It's what I'm doing. So is my wife.


Just gonna add that obviously laziness is a problem. I'm not sure if this is just a bad personality trait or a result of poor home training. But the keys to prosperity are available in the class room. Does everyone need to finish school to be successful? No. You could never go to school, grow up on a farm, and be a very successful farmer. But most people can't and don't.

If someone loses a good job and needs education/retraining to get another good job, it will be quite difficult to get that education while working at a low-paying job. Do you really think a 50-something person can train for a new career while flipping burgers 30 hours per week and selling flooring at Home Depot 25 hours a week just to be able to pay the mortgage, taxes, insurance, heat, car payment, gas, maintenance, etc.?
Are you saying that if they don't then they're lazy? And to top it off, it is difficult for 50-somethings to even find those jobs.

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13-02-2012, 10:04 AM (This post was last modified: 13-02-2012 10:14 AM by germanyt.)
RE: Do we have the right to tax people in order to help the poor?
(13-02-2012 09:51 AM)Peterkin Wrote:  By sheer and utter coincidence, a lot of these poor people are descended from slaves. Not to "play the race card"....

Of-bloody-course it's not about education! It's about the structure of society.

No it's not. Go give a basic math or English quiz to the people standing in line for section 8 housing. These are people who couldn't work even if they weren't too lazy because they have 5th grade educations. The education system has failed them and their parents have failed them. Parents who were likely failed by the education system. And so on, and so on. There is little accountability and little consequence for failure on the part of the family and the school if a student either doesn't go or drops out in 7th grade. The student is the one that pays the price and when millions of students are paying that price society suffers for it.
(13-02-2012 10:01 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(13-02-2012 09:37 AM)germanyt Wrote:  
(13-02-2012 09:34 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(13-02-2012 09:29 AM)germanyt Wrote:  Underemployed =/= poverty stricken

As a whole, widespread poverty is a result of poor education.

Education is certainly a large factor, but there are others such as discrimination in hiring and pay inequity. There can also be massive changes due to new technologies; and while you can say that those versed in the old technology and not in the new suffer from an educational deficiency, it is one not of their own making.

Perhaps individuals need to be a little more adaptable. I know I'm just one but if I lost my job today I could take any number of different jobs. Flooring, construction, sales, management, electronics repair. People need to stop complaining when their print advertisement education/experience doesn't get them a job advertising on the internet. Suck it up, find a temp job, take advantage of new educational opportunities, and start over. It's what I'm doing. So is my wife.


Just gonna add that obviously laziness is a problem. I'm not sure if this is just a bad personality trait or a result of poor home training. But the keys to prosperity are available in the class room. Does everyone need to finish school to be successful? No. You could never go to school, grow up on a farm, and be a very successful farmer. But most people can't and don't.

If someone loses a good job and needs education/retraining to get another good job, it will be quite difficult to get that education while working at a low-paying job. Do you really think a 50-something person can train for a new career while flipping burgers 30 hours per week and selling flooring at Home Depot 25 hours a week just to be able to pay the mortgage, taxes, insurance, heat, car payment, gas, maintenance, etc.?
Are you saying that if they don't then they're lazy? And to top it off, it is difficult for 50-somethings to even find those jobs.


That is the exact situation I'm in. I took a lesser paying job so that I could work a schedule that would accomodate my wife and my 1 year old while my wife goes to school. I also work a lot of weekends installing floors with my cousin to make up the loss of income. And I pay rent, taxes, insurance, electricity, car payment, gas, and maintenance.

As for being lazy, I can't claim that about each individual. Some people might be trying as hard as they can and still not making ends meet. In those cases we have programs in place to help them through tough times. Does welfare need to be reformed? Absolutely. But how can you justify playing Robin Hood with the wealth of the rich any further than we already do? When people get entitled they often stop trying. They figure 'fuck it, society screwed me and now I'm gonna take it easy and live of the teet of the government and the rich'. And it doesn't help with people running around claiming that others were dealt a bad hand by society.

Apologetic fiscal liberalism. SMH. This is how we wind up with shit like affirmative action.

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13-02-2012, 10:37 AM
RE: Do we have the right to tax people in order to help the poor?
(13-02-2012 10:04 AM)germanyt Wrote:  
(13-02-2012 09:51 AM)Peterkin Wrote:  It's about the structure of society.

No it's not.
As a whole, widespread poverty is a result of poor education.

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13-02-2012, 11:04 AM
RE: Do we have the right to tax people in order to help the poor?
(13-02-2012 10:37 AM)Peterkin Wrote:  
(13-02-2012 10:04 AM)germanyt Wrote:  
(13-02-2012 09:51 AM)Peterkin Wrote:  It's about the structure of society.

No it's not.
As a whole, widespread poverty is a result of poor education.

shiftless


More money isn't necessarily the way to solve the problem. And I'm not signing a petition regarding 16M dollars when I have no idea how it's being spent. I'm not an expert when it comes to reparing the education system. I just recognize it as the problem. We've thrown hundreds of millions (if not billions) in the Ed system and it doesn't seem to help. Classrooms still have old ass textbooks, old ass software, old ass no good teachers, and the same ole crap test scores. There is a lot to be said for charter schools and voucher systems but I'm unaware as to how to implement something like that on such a large scale.

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13-02-2012, 04:26 PM
RE: Do we have the right to tax people in order to help the poor?
(13-02-2012 09:51 AM)Peterkin Wrote:  
Quote: Zat:
To assess the benefit of education in the United States, I recommend studying the following report http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/unemployment-with-tertiary-education-male-percent-of-male-unemployment-wb-data.html

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13-02-2012, 05:04 PM
RE: Do we have the right to tax people in order to help the poor?
I'm in England an things are sooooo different over here.

I'm all in favour of helping the poor but it's a little excessive over here at times. I personally know people who have been on benefits, got a job, and then quit it again because they got more money when they were on benefits. That seems like a counter-productive system. Also because of the benefits people get for having children it has practically become a career option to have 10+ kids. People who do usually get provided with 8+ bedroom houses by the Government as well as large cars and £50000+ a year so they can adequately provide for their children. That also seems like a ridiculous situation to have.

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13-02-2012, 05:12 PM
RE: Do we have the right to tax people in order to help the poor?
(13-02-2012 05:04 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  I'm in England an things are sooooo different over here.

I'm all in favour of helping the poor but it's a little excessive over here at times. I personally know people who have been on benefits, got a job, and then quit it again because they got more money when they were on benefits. That seems like a counter-productive system. Also because of the benefits people get for having children it has practically become a career option to have 10+ kids. People who do usually get provided with 8+ bedroom houses by the Government as well as large cars and £50000+ a year so they can adequately provide for their children. That also seems like a ridiculous situation to have.


The dollar amounts seem higher where you are but the same shit happens here.

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

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