Do we have the right to tax people in order to help the poor?
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10-02-2012, 07:05 AM
RE: Do we have the right to tax people in order to help the poor?
(10-02-2012 05:14 AM)Zat Wrote:  Personally I feel justified using that argument because I adopted my 2 children when they were 5 and 6 (brother and sister) and nobody wanted them. I have earned my pension.
That justifies it for YOU but your children still never got a choice I’m afraid Confused

Observer

Agnostic atheist
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Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
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10-02-2012, 07:33 AM
RE: Do we have the right to tax people in order to help the poor?
(10-02-2012 07:05 AM)Observer Wrote:  That justifies it for YOU but your children still never got a choice I’m afraid Confused

...and it is not my fault.

I have contributed substantially to society when I raised them and helped them become decent, productive adults.

So does any parent who does the same, regardless whether the children had a choice in the matter or not.

The world needs decent, productive people to keep it going, in spite of the many unproductive and outright destructive bastards who are dragging it down.

As I have told my children, many times: "you don't owe me anything".

Society does.
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10-02-2012, 08:14 AM
RE: Do we have the right to tax people in order to help the poor?
Too much democrat in here for me. I'm out.

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

-Mark Twain
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10-02-2012, 08:20 AM
RE: Do we have the right to tax people in order to help the poor?
(10-02-2012 08:14 AM)germanyt Wrote:  Too much democrat in here for me. I'm out.

Since when is 'democrat' a dirty word?

It implies democracy. What is wrong with that? Rolleyes

Society is not a jungle populated by carnivores and prey.

It is a mutual-assistance organization with interdependence, without which most humans (especially the rich ones) would die.

While some of us are not contributing, or even ‘contributing’ in a negative way, there is no doubt that we are all taking as much out of the system as we can.

With our taxes, while we work, we contributed to others who needed it and, in turn, when we need it, we expect similar treatment.

Accepting assistance is not the same as accepting charity.

We have earned it.
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10-02-2012, 08:27 AM
RE: Do we have the right to tax people in order to help the poor?
(10-02-2012 08:20 AM)Zat Wrote:  
(10-02-2012 08:14 AM)germanyt Wrote:  Too much democrat in here for me. I'm out.

Since when is 'democrat' a dirty word?

It implies democracy. What is wrong with that? Rolleyes

Society is not a jungle populated by carnivores and prey.

It is a mutual-assistance organization with interdependence, without which most humans (especially the rich ones) would die.

While some of us are not contributing, or even ‘contributing’ in a negative way, there is no doubt that we are all taking as much out of the system as we can.

With our taxes, while we work, we contributed to others who needed it and, in turn, when we need it, we expect similar treatment.

Accepting assistance is not the same as accepting charity.

We have earned it.


Clicked right back on this thread without even thinking about it.

I'm not using dem as a bad word. It's a failed ideology. So is Republican. Neither work on their own. A good reason why we have so many people in Congress to represent different minded people. As for representing democracy, we don't live in a democracy. We live in a republic.

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

-Mark Twain
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10-02-2012, 08:39 AM
RE: Do we have the right to tax people in order to help the poor?
(10-02-2012 08:27 AM)germanyt Wrote:  I'm not using dem as a bad word. It's a failed ideology. So is Republican. Neither work on their own. A good reason why we have so many people in Congress to represent different minded people. As for representing democracy, we don't live in a democracy. We live in a republic.

Democracy is not an ideology -- it is a form of social organization implying a method of decision making. It can coexist with any of the 'ideologies', be it communism, capitalism, even feudalism.

Democracy and republic are not mutually exclusive terms. You can live in both or in neither (the US is supposed to be a democratic republic).

However, all this is besides the point of this thread which is about the ethical principles of social organization and interdependence.
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10-02-2012, 08:51 AM
RE: Do we have the right to tax people in order to help the poor?
(10-02-2012 08:39 AM)Zat Wrote:  
(10-02-2012 08:27 AM)germanyt Wrote:  I'm not using dem as a bad word. It's a failed ideology. So is Republican. Neither work on their own. A good reason why we have so many people in Congress to represent different minded people. As for representing democracy, we don't live in a democracy. We live in a republic.

Democracy is not an ideology -- it is a form of social organization implying a method of decision making. It can coexist with any of the 'ideologies', be it communism, capitalism, even feudalism.

Democracy and republic are not mutually exclusive terms. You can live in both or in neither (the US is supposed to be a democratic republic).

However, all this is besides the point of this thread which is about the ethical principles of social organization and interdependence.


I agree it's off topic. I wasn't referring to democracy as an ideology. I was talking about democrat. ie liberalism (specifically fiscal liberalism).

But the answer to your question is no. Everone in this country has an opportunity to make something of themselves. No one deserves a handout. I'm not anti welfare. Unemployment and food stamp benefits are a great insurance plan. But there are probably a million or more people in this country making a living on the welfare system. Those dollars would be better invested in education.

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

-Mark Twain
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10-02-2012, 09:05 AM
RE: Do we have the right to tax people in order to help the poor?
(10-02-2012 08:51 AM)germanyt Wrote:  ... people in this country making a living on the welfare system.

...especially many of the super rich, living off of government contracts and government bailouts.

According to the gospel of capitalist apologists: it is supposed to be 'trickle-down' not 'trickle-up'. Rolleyes

BTW is 'liberal' a dirty word now?

The word implies 'liberty' doesn't it?

And before you call me a 'communist', let me remind you that the word 'communism' implies 'community'.

It is amazing how many beautiful concepts became dirty words in certain circles! Big Grin
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10-02-2012, 09:28 AM (This post was last modified: 10-02-2012 09:31 AM by Observer.)
RE: Do we have the right to tax people in order to help the poor?
(10-02-2012 07:33 AM)Zat Wrote:  As I have told my children, many times: "you don't owe me anything".

Society does.
Good...
For a second I thought you where one of those typical "The babyboomers where the best" type of old farts... but it clearly shows you're just a regular old fart... Big Grin


btw...
I'm going to answer to the OP as well but first I want the read the other post and carefully over-think my response. I have quite the nuanced idea about this.

Observer

Agnostic atheist
Secular humanist
Emotional rationalist
Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
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10-02-2012, 09:33 AM
RE: Do we have the right to tax people in order to help the poor?
(08-02-2012 05:42 PM)Zat Wrote:  Stark brought this question up on the “Do we owe each other anything?” thread (sort of).

Well, I am biased on this issue, because I am one of the poor and live on a very modest government pension. We are listed way under the poverty line and, without the extra income from our small online book business, we would be often hungry.

I keep hearing more and more often from every direction that we the baby-boomers (the aging population) will break the bank and make younger people have to pay higher taxes, as if we had not raised them, put them through school, started them in life AND paid a lot of taxes ourselves into our healthcare and pension system, the money which is being gambled away in questionable mutual funds and undefined derivatives by our leaders. However, 16 billion for fighter planes and 1.2 Billion for pointless 2-day Gxx meetings are, apparently, affordable.

So, my question is: should bleeding-heart-liberals be allowed to FORCE others (by enacting progressive tax laws) to help those who need help?

This question is very closely ties to the other one I asked today: “do we owe each other” anything?

Just o be fair, you did all those nice things by putting it on the credit card....lol! Now we have to pay it off, while supporting you.

We have plenty of money in the current tax system, we just blow it on Offense. Taxing people for the good of the group is not against their rights. And if these people think it is, I would be happy to help them move.

With that said, i think something needs to be done about our surplus population via child restrictions.
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