Do we have the right to tax people in order to help the poor?
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10-02-2012, 01:37 PM
RE: Do we have the right to tax people in order to help the poor?
(10-02-2012 01:20 PM)germanyt Wrote:  What happens when t....

A lot of these questions were answered over the course of that thread.

If only you bothered to read it, you could answer them yourself.

I am certainly not going to repeat it here, just for you. Rolleyes
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10-02-2012, 01:40 PM
RE: Do we have the right to tax people in order to help the poor?
I'm going to poke my nose in here for a second. Probably a mistake, but fuck it.

There are flaws that I see in both Zats and GTs arguments. So I am not taking either "side".

I simply want to point out that Zat, in this and several other threads, is constantly telling those who oppose his ideas that they need to read what he feels they need to read. Almost as though the idea that the ideas are flawed is impossible, and the reader has obviously not read properly.

I would propose that you, Zat, go back through this thread and read GTs posts over again. You may not like his viewpoint, but the fact is he makes some VERY strong arguments, and has demonstrated that he HAS read your posts. I just think the ego needs to be taken down a notch or two for this to be the interesting discussion that it could potentially be.

So many cats, so few good recipes.
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10-02-2012, 01:42 PM (This post was last modified: 10-02-2012 01:45 PM by germanyt.)
RE: Do we have the right to tax people in order to help the poor?
(10-02-2012 01:37 PM)Zat Wrote:  
(10-02-2012 01:20 PM)germanyt Wrote:  What happens when t....

A lot of these questions were answered over the course of that thread.

If only you bothered to read it, you could answer them yourself.

I am certainly not going to repeat it here, just for you. Rolleyes

Your post said nothing about what happened to businesses when over the course of a couple generations fewer people partake in the private sector.

But whatevs. It doesn't matter. Fortunately our elected officials believe in free market economics and are pushing class/income equality. Which is what you seem to want. Anyways, I'm gonna go have a cigarette. You, mystic, and NE Ohio can have fun circle jerking over your socialist fantasies.


No hate BTW. I enjoy the debate.

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

-Mark Twain
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10-02-2012, 01:44 PM
RE: Do we have the right to tax people in order to help the poor?
(10-02-2012 01:42 PM)germanyt Wrote:  Which is what you seem to want.

Wrong again.
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10-02-2012, 01:52 PM
RE: Do we have the right to tax people in order to help the poor?
(still working on a response for the first tread)

Observer

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Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
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10-02-2012, 01:53 PM (This post was last modified: 10-02-2012 03:03 PM by Zat.)
RE: Do we have the right to tax people in order to help the poor?
(10-02-2012 01:40 PM)Stark Raving Wrote:  I simply want to point out that Zat, in this and several other threads, is constantly telling those who oppose his ideas that they need to read what he feels they need to read.

I do it when it is obvious that they have not, proving it by completely misstating what I had said. Happens all the time.


Quote: has demonstrated that he HAS read your posts.

Like misstating my proposed contract to read as if I would allow "lazy fuckers" not to contribute?

Like declaring that what I want is "income equality?"

...and many others like that?

Problem is that GT and I live on two completely different planets and speak two completely different languages. That is why I said before that I give up trying to get through to him.

And now I will.

PS. Maybe if we took the mental laziness down a notch or two and started paying more attention to what we say to each other, and what others actually said to us, then communication could flow a bit easier. Like I said on the "Making Yourself Understood" thread. Undecided
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10-02-2012, 01:54 PM
RE: Do we have the right to tax people in order to help the poor?
(10-02-2012 01:10 PM)germanyt Wrote:  I could see someone living in Somolia or Pakistan finding this idea appealing. But we have a pefectly good system of government in place now. Unfortunately partisan politics takes a stranglehold and the people end up getting the shaft for it. What we need are more educated voters. Like I said, education is the key to ending poverty. Not taxation or a semi communist economy.

I understand and agree that education is very instrumental in ending poverty.
Here is something off the top of my head -a few facts about the US economy, these are just some thoughts I have in mind right now... probably because I'm thinking of doing my taxes... Tongue
Like I said, just something to think about.

If a person in the US has an income of 60 thousand dollars a year, they will pay taxes on all of that income. This person will have nothing left to put into the bank for savings or investment.

If a person in the US has an income of 95 thousand dollars a year, they will pay taxes on 90 thousand dollars of that, the other 5 thousand will be money they do not pay taxes on. This person will be able to put 5 thousand dollars into the bank for savings or investment.

If a person in the US has an income of 300 thousand dollars a year, they will pay taxes on 90 thousand dollars of that, the other 210 thousand will be money they do not pay taxes on. This person will be able to put 210 thousand dollars into the bank for savings or investment.
_____________________
The average employed person in the US pays a tax rate of 18% or higher on income earned.

The average self-employed person in the US who lives off the investment income of that company's dividends, is taxed at a 15% percent rate.
_________________

There is a disparity in income and the taxation of that income -this is a fact.
The average person will never be able to pull ahead. The middle income person will be able to pull ahead very slowly if he doesn't want to go very far. The more wealthy person will become more wealthy by leaps and bounds.
_________________

Sorry, I just have far more questions than answers. Shy

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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10-02-2012, 02:23 PM
RE: Do we have the right to tax people in order to help the poor?
(10-02-2012 01:54 PM)kim Wrote:  
(10-02-2012 01:10 PM)germanyt Wrote:  I could see someone living in Somolia or Pakistan finding this idea appealing. But we have a pefectly good system of government in place now. Unfortunately partisan politics takes a stranglehold and the people end up getting the shaft for it. What we need are more educated voters. Like I said, education is the key to ending poverty. Not taxation or a semi communist economy.

I understand and agree that education is very instrumental in ending poverty.
Here is something off the top of my head -a few facts about the US economy, these are just some thoughts I have in mind right now... probably because I'm thinking of doing my taxes... Tongue
Like I said, just something to think about.

If a person in the US has an income of 60 thousand dollars a year, they will pay taxes on all of that income. This person will have nothing left to put into the bank for savings or investment.

If a person in the US has an income of 95 thousand dollars a year, they will pay taxes on 90 thousand dollars of that, the other 5 thousand will be money they do not pay taxes on. This person will be able to put 5 thousand dollars into the bank for savings or investment.

If a person in the US has an income of 300 thousand dollars a year, they will pay taxes on 90 thousand dollars of that, the other 210 thousand will be money they do not pay taxes on. This person will be able to put 210 thousand dollars into the bank for savings or investment.
_____________________
The average employed person in the US pays a tax rate of 18% or higher on income earned.

The average self-employed person in the US who lives off the investment income of that company's dividends, is taxed at a 15% percent rate.
_________________

There is a disparity in income and the taxation of that income -this is a fact.
The average person will never be able to pull ahead. The middle income person will be able to pull ahead very slowly if he doesn't want to go very far. The more wealthy person will become more wealthy by leaps and bounds.
_________________

Sorry, I just have far more questions than answers. Shy

I don't understand what you mean by the first part about savings. Income tax brackets are marginal. Everyone pays the same rates in the same brackets. But tax rates increase at higher brackets. Here is a sorta good link.
http://www.consumerismcommentary.com/fed...nal-rates/

Ex.
If 0-10K is the first tax bracket and the rate is 5%, 10-20 is 10%, 20-30K is 15%, 30-40K is 20%, and 40-50K is 25% then someone who makes 50,000 would pay 5% on their first 10K, 10% on the income from 10-20, 15% on income from 20-30, etc. They would pay 500 + 1000 + 1500 + 2000 + 2500. That would be 7500 dollars in taxes on 50 grand. Less any deductions and tax credits that person might get say, 2000 dollars back on their return. So they effectively pay 5500 in taxes. So the effective tax rate from paying 5500 on 50000 is 11%.

The 2nd part is because capital gains is taxed at a flat 15% regardless of how much you made. This is a problem because most of the people earning capital gains are wealthy. The reason this tax rate is so low is because Republicans and some Democrats are convinced that keeping investment taxes low spurs corporate investment and thus, job growth. I haven't seen evidence that this policy either works or doesn't work. Hard to tell given all the other economic factors. This is basically Reaganomics.

I agree that income desparity is a problem but I'm not sold on the idea that simply raising tax rates to compensate the poor is the right idea. It's kind of like affirmative action for the poor. People should be allowed to make as much money as they can and they should be taxed appropriately. Hence the Buffet Rule. I'd rather live in a country that allows unlimited prosperity while having a lower class than one where income reaches a point of no return and noone is poor.

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

-Mark Twain
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10-02-2012, 02:45 PM
RE: Do we have the right to tax people in order to help the poor?
58 fricking posts!
gimme a break...
now I have to start over again...

Observer

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Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
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10-02-2012, 03:15 PM
RE: Do we have the right to tax people in order to help the poor?
(10-02-2012 02:23 PM)germanyt Wrote:  I don't understand what you mean by the first part about savings. Income tax brackets are marginal. Everyone pays the same rates in the same brackets. But tax rates increase at higher brackets.

I'm sorry, I should have clarified social security payroll tax -like I said, just thinking out loud.

I refer to what is taken out in of each person's payroll and deposited into social security. Each person is required to be taxed up to 90 thousand US dollars of their income. Any income beyond that does not go into social security.
Oops... I'm sorry, I just looked it up and that figure is actually 106,800 US dollars -m'bad. (I knew it was around 90k-took a stab. Tongue )

The current cap was set in 1983 to expose 90% of total national wages to the Social Security tax. Because of inequality in income growth since then (the rich growing richer), the amount of wages escaping such taxation has grown from 10% to about 15%. It is said that if we raise the tax, we will return to historical intent and also address the erosion of income equality since 1983.

Here is an interesting report with competent statistics which suggest raising or eliminating the cap on wages that are subject to taxes could reduce the long-range deficit in the Social Security Trust Funds. If all earnings were subject to the payroll tax, but the base was retained for benefit calculations, the Social Security Trust Funds would remain solvent for the next 75 years, or longer.

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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