Do we have the "stuff" to travel beyond our solar system?
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25-02-2013, 04:04 AM
RE: Do we have the "stuff" to travel beyond our solar system?
(25-02-2013 02:08 AM)Cardinal Smurf Wrote:  
(25-02-2013 02:00 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  I'm not denying we can't do it. I have full faith that man is capable of building a space ship and fying around our closests stars in an attempt to find a non-existant human friendly place to land.

I'm denying that it will ever happen. You might disregard my economic comments but money is the difference between this actually happening and this getting thrown in the bin.

It is extremely unrealistic because it would be unimaginably expensive and money is what makes the world go around.


Governments cannot justify the expense to the public and private investors would want a return which they wont get because even at 10% c they'll be long dead before any form of profit even is considered.

The only hope, ONLY hope it has is people leaving in their will or people making small donations etc.. and that'd take fucking AGES to build up. Nobody is going to donate to something that requires 10's if not 100's of years worth of donations to even get started, the risk of nothing happening would be through the roof and noone would donate.



When you explain to me how this is ECONOMICLLY viable, then I'll reconsider my opinion.

It's only economically unviable now. We aren't talking about a project for now. This is decades into the future.
Son, this will NEVER be economically viable.
As such, it will never gain funding and as such NO we do not have what it takes to get to another planet.

To be economically viable you need this colonization idea to work. BUT it has to be a sure thing due to the scale.
I'm talking, we need to find a planet that can harbor human life, we need to comfirm that it can hold human life by sending something to it to measure it's atmosphere and we need to ensure that this planet has the materials needed to sustain a colony. AND this planet has to be close, nobody is going to do something that takes 22,000years...

IF you can find such a planet that looks ideal and is close and IF you can get a 'probe' there to comfirm surface atmosphere and soil samples and temprature etc.. and IF man could get to it within a persons life time then MAYBE MAYBE you could get people to MAYBE consider building something to venture to this planet to set up a human colony.

BUT that still wont get you the finance you need as it still wouldn't be profitable.
So, as well as all this (which will never happen) you need to be able to profit from this colony which means you're going to need to send things back, whether its a crop of some sort, or something rare we don't get on earth or w/e which means you will need MORE investment because a shipment of a rare earth element once every 100 years wont be financially viable... And NO, we can't tax them because that will just cause inflation.

aka, it's not and never will be finacially viable until we can get much MUCH faster then 10% c. And even then you'll need ungodly amounts of inital investment which you will never get.



You can go on about how nuclear will get us here at 10% c or w/e (while I'm going there, is there a solution to lack of food/air/water yet??) BUT if it's not economically viable... it'll never happen.

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25-02-2013, 05:45 AM
RE: Do we have the "stuff" to travel beyond our solar system?
(25-02-2013 04:04 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  
(25-02-2013 02:08 AM)Cardinal Smurf Wrote:  It's only economically unviable now. We aren't talking about a project for now. This is decades into the future.
Son, this will NEVER be economically viable.
As such, it will never gain funding and as such NO we do not have what it takes to get to another planet.

To be economically viable you need this colonization idea to work. BUT it has to be a sure thing due to the scale.
I'm talking, we need to find a planet that can harbor human life, we need to comfirm that it can hold human life by sending something to it to measure it's atmosphere and we need to ensure that this planet has the materials needed to sustain a colony. AND this planet has to be close, nobody is going to do something that takes 22,000years...

IF you can find such a planet that looks ideal and is close and IF you can get a 'probe' there to comfirm surface atmosphere and soil samples and temprature etc.. and IF man could get to it within a persons life time then MAYBE MAYBE you could get people to MAYBE consider building something to venture to this planet to set up a human colony.

BUT that still wont get you the finance you need as it still wouldn't be profitable.
So, as well as all this (which will never happen) you need to be able to profit from this colony which means you're going to need to send things back, whether its a crop of some sort, or something rare we don't get on earth or w/e which means you will need MORE investment because a shipment of a rare earth element once every 100 years wont be financially viable... And NO, we can't tax them because that will just cause inflation.

aka, it's not and never will be finacially viable until we can get much MUCH faster then 10% c. And even then you'll need ungodly amounts of inital investment which you will never get.



You can go on about how nuclear will get us here at 10% c or w/e (while I'm going there, is there a solution to lack of food/air/water yet??) BUT if it's not economically viable... it'll never happen.
The way politics works, space colonisation would only receive funding when it because blatantly obvious that Earth is no longer sufficiently inhabitable (either due to overpopulation or exploitation of resources).

If forced into it, I think governments and companies would sink money into a space colonisation attempt, even if it provides no returns. Until then? What can I say, humans love creating their own problems.

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25-02-2013, 06:20 AM (This post was last modified: 25-02-2013 06:30 AM by DeepThought.)
RE: Do we have the "stuff" to travel beyond our solar system?
Earmuffs is still speaking from present experience with space endeavours. The costs of getting things into space will get cheaper and is constantly getting cheaper.

Private companies are starting to get into the game - SpaceX, Bigelow Aerospace, etc... It's not just governments anymore.

We haven't even scratched the surface with what is possible in space. Once companies start mining asteroids and have enough equipment up there to manufacture and refine metals in space the business growth will be exponential. I'd say the minerals market will crash due to it being cheaper mining asteroids than mining on earth. The ability to use large areas of cheap reflective foil to focus the sun. You can run a fractionating oven to melt down and refine the asteroid material almost for free with no pollution. You can't compete with that. It's just a matter of getting there and getting the mining industry started.

Once a mining industry is in space...

With that perspective in mind - the metals we need are already in space. There are some nice 140-150km planetoids we could capture to harvest materials. Building a large spaceship isn't so daunting when you have all the metals and manufacturing facilities you need. Only need to take care of the more fiddly components... Computers, recycling systems, etc.

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25-02-2013, 07:30 AM
RE: Do we have the "stuff" to travel beyond our solar system?
I have no doubt mining asteroids could be profitable.
And eys I know private companies are getting into the space game.
BUT those two things are PROFITABLE!!!!!!!!!

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25-02-2013, 07:38 AM (This post was last modified: 25-02-2013 07:45 AM by DeepThought.)
RE: Do we have the "stuff" to travel beyond our solar system?
(25-02-2013 07:30 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  I have no doubt mining asteroids could be profitable.
And eys I know private companies are getting into the space game.
BUT those two things are PROFITABLE!!!!!!!!!
They are game changers, they make metals cheap.... almost worthless. Many asteroids are rich in water ice. Plenty of fuel etc..

So, that changes the market. Makes things like Project Orion manageable. This is my point.

wikipedia Wrote:In 1997 it was speculated that a relatively small metallic asteroid with a diameter of 1.6 km (0.99 mi) contains more than $20 trillion USD worth of industrial and precious metals.[6][30] A comparatively small M-type asteroid with a mean diameter of 1 kilometre (0.62 mi) could contain more than two billion metric tons of ironnickel ore,[31] or two to three times the annual production of 2004.[32] The asteroid 16 Psyche is believed to contain 1.7×10^19 kg of nickel–iron, which could supply the world production requirement for several million years. A small portion of the extracted material would also be precious metals.

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25-02-2013, 08:54 AM
Do we have the "stuff" to travel beyond our solar system?
Muffs, there will come a time when the survival of our species cannot rely on being profit driven. But, I agree that time is not now.

However, I think it's rather bold to assert "never" in this. I don't think even The Great and Mighty Muffs can predict humankind's capabilities even 200 years in our future, let alone 2000.

But you bring up a good point in that the endeavor itself must go beyond frivolity or research and become necessity.

I agree it seems silly to discuss this endeavor in our current context. It does seem premature. But even 50 years from now we cannot predict how the majority of humans will feel.

It does seem that this thread has fractured into 2 discussions. Some of us still seem to be suggesting it would be neato-keen to go exploring now, with humans simply roaming space hoping to simply amble into a serendipitous situation. I agree that suggestion does seen folly even to me. Others, myself included, have taken that suggestion and tried to bring it back closer to reality. The harsh reality is that leaving this planet is only a matter of (albeit, eons of) time. This will either happen or our species will be lost. Hopefully we can get past the compulsion of allowing ourselves to be slaves to profit.

Further, with sufficient advances in our understanding of how ecosystems work, finding habitable worlds need not be an ultimate goal. Consider the work of Larry Niven, perhaps. And when you consider the viability of a construct like the ringworld remember to think in a large time scale.

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25-02-2013, 11:34 AM
RE: Do we have the "stuff" to travel beyond our solar system?
(24-02-2013 08:27 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Fucking Earmuffs... Big Grin

http://www.gravitywarpdrive.com/Element_115.htm Element 115, bitches. XP

Fake

And Lazar is full of shit. We've created Element 115 in the laboratory and it decays in 100 microseconds. It also does not exhibit a 'Gravity A' wave extending beyond the nucleus of the atom.

A full critique can be found here.
http://www.dreamlandresort.com/area51/lazar/critiq.htm

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25-02-2013, 04:45 PM
RE: Do we have the "stuff" to travel beyond our solar system?
(25-02-2013 07:38 AM)DeepThought Wrote:  
(25-02-2013 07:30 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  I have no doubt mining asteroids could be profitable.
And eys I know private companies are getting into the space game.
BUT those two things are PROFITABLE!!!!!!!!!
They are game changers, they make metals cheap.... almost worthless. Many asteroids are rich in water ice. Plenty of fuel etc..

So, that changes the market. Makes things like Project Orion manageable. This is my point.

wikipedia Wrote:In 1997 it was speculated that a relatively small metallic asteroid with a diameter of 1.6 km (0.99 mi) contains more than $20 trillion USD worth of industrial and precious metals.[6][30] A comparatively small M-type asteroid with a mean diameter of 1 kilometre (0.62 mi) could contain more than two billion metric tons of ironnickel ore,[31] or two to three times the annual production of 2004.[32] The asteroid 16 Psyche is believed to contain 1.7×10^19 kg of nickel–iron, which could supply the world production requirement for several million years. A small portion of the extracted material would also be precious metals.
Shit will only be mined if profit can come of it. Especially considering the inital investment is huge and it's a risky venture.
Thus it will be mined at a rate that doesn't flood the market bringing the price to "worthless" as to maintain a profitable price.
Sure it might become cheaper, perhaps even a lot cheaper, BUT it'll still cost money and projects like this will still be expensive. AND it still doesn't make projects like this worth the investment.

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28-02-2013, 10:29 AM
RE: Do we have the "stuff" to travel beyond our solar system?
(25-02-2013 11:34 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  
(24-02-2013 08:27 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Fucking Earmuffs... Big Grin

http://www.gravitywarpdrive.com/Element_115.htm Element 115, bitches. XP

Fake

And Lazar is full of shit. We've created Element 115 in the laboratory and it decays in 100 microseconds. It also does not exhibit a 'Gravity A' wave extending beyond the nucleus of the atom.

A full critique can be found here.
http://www.dreamlandresort.com/area51/lazar/critiq.htm
Oh, yeah? YOUR FAKE!!! Tongue

(Post was meant as a general alternative thought. Assuming Lazar to be sincere - which is of course a stretch - he seems to me to have partial information to which he filled in the gaps with geek speak for marketing purposes. The point to my pointlessness is to suggest that the feasible method of interstellar travel is not within the current mainstream paradigm. Unless of course I go to kiwi-land and apply my boot to earmuff's backside and send him off to tau ceti. Tongue )

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05-03-2013, 07:52 PM
RE: Do we have the "stuff" to travel beyond our solar system?
(06-02-2013 11:28 PM)cheapthrillseaker Wrote:  I've always wondered if, with what we've got on our planet for raw materials, could we make a ship to get to another star system? I do hope human differences are settled so the goal can be reached to travel in space and colonize other worlds, but my fear lies within not knowing if we indeed have the right "stuff" to do so. I hope we do. Can anyone shed some light on this for me?
It is more then possible, in my life time or yours NO. The in devour would take probably generations of space flight. Impossible is for the fools who still think science is at the end game..................
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