Do we owe each other anything?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
10-02-2012, 02:37 PM
RE: Do we owe each other anything?
Short responce: yes

Long responce:

I like to see myself as someone who is free. But somehow freedom is never unlimited. I once challenged myself to find a definition for the honest freedom I like to experience. This is what I came up with:

I'm free when I am able to go, think, act and speak as I please.
I understand that, in defining so, my freedom comes with a price: great responsibility! Not only am I responsible for the advantages of being free, I am also responsible for the things that go wrong in my life, the society and by extension, the world. I would consider myself really free if I could find a balance between my freedom, that of my fellow humans and the resources that are needed in obtaining and maintaining such freedom.


And that is what we owe each other: responsibility.

It starts with the kid: It doesn’t need to be in such a situation that it can end up into the river in the first place. If it is in no position to understand the danger, then it diverts a lot if not all it’s responsibility to its guardian or steward.
Then there is the owner of the body of water, let it be the government or the owner of a private property. they need to make sure the dangers are clearly understood and visible: signs, safe crossings, railing.
Of course this often proves insufficient, and accidents can happen where children end up in the water. In this story there is 1: you 2: the young fisherman.
1: some thoughts about you. You are unable to help the child but you seem to be able to walk around carrying a gun and able to operate it. Weird situation, but saying that it is impossible would be an argument of ignorance. Also, you seem to know the fisherman pretty well since you know he can swim good enough to help the infant.
2: the fisherman: Is just relaxing by the waterfront minding his own business when faith strikes and he is needed.

your responsibility is to make sure you CAN provide help. Somehow you are unable to do so. I don't know what. Didn’t care to learn how to swim? Somehow you also seem to be lacking what is needed to be a responsible gun owner nl: don't point the fricking thing at someone!

Eventually It seems the fisherman is unwilling to take the responsibility to rescue the child.

We choose to live in a society of law and order. It is up to society to decide who is taking what sort of responsibly for what events. To examine and judge such things we have investigating judges, judges and morality experts. They are there to investigate about what the motives are for both the fisherman and you who did not help the child, that there was no railing, and that the child ended up without supervision in the first place. It’s their job to approach such things rationally and unbiased with the emotions of a gun wielding caveman.

In such an unlikely chain of completely wasted responsibilities, death is inevitable. Is this honest? Who the fuck tried to tell you life would be honest?


Do we owe each other anything
Yes! Responsibility.

Observer

Agnostic atheist
Secular humanist
Emotional rationalist
Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-02-2012, 02:47 PM
RE: Do we owe each other anything?
Scenario #1

I am in a wheelchair. I am crippled. I roll along the river for fresh air. I carry a gun to ward off cougars (frequent in the area). I know the man in the boat. He is an Ayn Rand disciple, proving a point. I have seconds to act. Legally prescribed action is out. I have an opportunity to try to save the child by threatening the man. I would not shoot him but maybe a threat is enough. I do it. He relents and saves the child.

Scenario #2

I am in a wheelchair. I am crippled. I roll along the river for fresh air. I carry a gun to ward off cougars (frequent in the area). I know the man in the boat. He is an Ayn Rand disciple, proving a point. I have seconds to act. Legally prescribed action is out. I hesitate, ask him nicely, argue with him. Finally he agrees. Too late, the child is dead.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-02-2012, 02:57 PM
RE: Do we owe each other anything?
That's a tough question. I think I wouldn't shoot him. Just treat him with contempt and disgust. But my anger towards him, if I was really in that situation, might be enough for me to pull the trigger.

I dunno.

I guess if he refused I wouldn't shoot him but rather I'd try to save the kid myself. If I die in the process at least I don't have to live my life knowing I didn't try. And although it doesn't matter much at least for a brief moment the kid would know that someone cared enough to try and help him.

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

-Mark Twain
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-02-2012, 03:43 PM
RE: Do we owe each other anything?
In both scenario's my above response is still valid.
Either scenario is a loss scenario so what you choose depends entirely on your temperament.

The fallacy is that you already seem to know the outcome of the first scenario madame Soleil. Tongue What if both drown and your well meaning shooting skills are the cause?

Observer

Agnostic atheist
Secular humanist
Emotional rationalist
Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-02-2012, 04:14 PM
RE: Do we owe each other anything?
The two scenarios are only two I picked out of a large number of equally possible scenarios, trying to make a point. Shall I list off a number of other possibles, for the sake of completeness? Just to prove that I have an imagination?

Your call... Tongue
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-02-2012, 04:22 PM
RE: Do we owe each other anything?
(10-02-2012 04:14 PM)Zat Wrote:  Shall I list off a number of other possibles, for the sake of completeness? Just to prove that I have an imagination?

Your call... Tongue
only if you don't copy them from an other site... Tongue


I see 3 possibility's...

I'm missing the point of your post
Your missing the point of my post
We're both missing the point of our posts

Observer

Agnostic atheist
Secular humanist
Emotional rationalist
Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-02-2012, 04:24 PM
RE: Do we owe each other anything?
Today seems to be the day when EVERYBODY misses EVERYTHING!

Oh well... Big Grin
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-02-2012, 04:28 PM
RE: Do we owe each other anything?
you where saying?
I missed that...

Observer

Agnostic atheist
Secular humanist
Emotional rationalist
Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-02-2012, 04:30 PM
RE: Do we owe each other anything?
My point was: There are situations in real life when a responsible and humane human being would want to use at least the threat of force to make another human being act responsibly (as opposed to Ayn Rand's basic ethical principle).

What was your point again? Big Grin
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-02-2012, 04:32 PM
RE: Do we owe each other anything?
btw Zat

Your OP's are thought provoking and interesting but the speed you launch them at makes it difficult to follow.

Observer

Agnostic atheist
Secular humanist
Emotional rationalist
Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: