Do we owe each other anything?
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10-02-2012, 05:40 PM
RE: Do we owe each other anything?
(10-02-2012 05:31 PM)bemore Wrote:  So basiclally answering your question Zat paradoxically I would have to say yes and no

Let me suggest this to you bemore: if the child in question was your own, or one you really VERY VERY MUCH cared about, you would be less likely given to philosophical contemplation, instead of urgent and immediate action, to do everything in your power to save the child.

I may be wrong, but I don't think so. Tongue
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10-02-2012, 05:58 PM
RE: Do we owe each other anything?
(10-02-2012 05:40 PM)Zat Wrote:  
(10-02-2012 05:31 PM)bemore Wrote:  So basiclally answering your question Zat paradoxically I would have to say yes and no

Let me suggest this to you bemore: if the child in question was your own, or one you really VERY VERY MUCH cared about, you would be less likely given to philosophical contemplation, instead of urgent and immediate action, to do everything in your power to save the child.

I may be wrong, but I don't think so. Tongue

I understand that all of this thought....though insightfull will all be gone and out the window once one is put in the situation.

Especially if it was one of my "brood" Tongue

What im trying to say is the man in the boat may have been brought up in such horrendous circumstances that if you was to read hes life story would probably make you feel sad......and it is this sadness feeling that you feel fleetingly that he has to live with and its this outlook that may have some say in the way he makes decisions.

The man may have have been pushed aside at every oppurtunity....every single time he asks for help it may have been rejected......and there are people out there I imagine who this has possibly happened to......so for him to look at the boy drowning and possibly recognise himself.....that will may lead to kinship which drives the man in the boat to rescue the child.....or he may continue the negative cycle and just do nothing.......as nothing was done for him throughout his life.

I think what im trying to say is most of the people on here are pretty good mannered people at heart......however unfortunatly in life there are "victims" that dont all share our views.

For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
You are your own emphasis.
So I say nothing.

-Bemore.
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10-02-2012, 06:07 PM (This post was last modified: 10-02-2012 06:12 PM by Zat.)
RE: Do we owe each other anything?
(10-02-2012 05:58 PM)bemore Wrote:  I think what im trying to say is most of the people on here are pretty good mannered people at heart......however unfortunatly in life there are "victims" that dont all share our views.

bemore, we are ALL victims, one way or another. Some are luckier, some less so.

Threatening the man in the boat was not about passing judgement on him -- only about saving a life.

Human society is an interdependent organization, evolved for maximizing survival potential.

When I say we 'owe' something to each other, I am talking about another thread I contributed to a long time ago, called: “How to resolve conflicting loyalties” it is Post #25..

I am convinced that it was the most important post I ever made here and, unfortunately, very few people seemed to be interested in it.

I think it should be made compulsory reading in elementary school (not necessarily my version).
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10-02-2012, 06:12 PM
RE: Do we owe each other anything?
(10-02-2012 06:07 PM)Zat Wrote:  
(10-02-2012 05:58 PM)bemore Wrote:  I think what im trying to say is most of the people on here are pretty good mannered people at heart......however unfortunatly in life there are "victims" that dont all share our views.

bemore, we are ALL victims, one way or another. Some are luckier, some less so.

Threatening the man in the boat was not about passing judgement on him -- only about saving a life.

Human society is an interdependent organization, evolved for maximizing survival potential.

When I say we 'owe' something to each other, I am talking about another thread I started a long time ago, called: "Resolving conflicting loyalties".

I am convinced that it was the most important thread I ever started here and, unfortunately, very few people seemed to be interested in it.

I think it should be made compulsory reading in elementary school (not necessarily my version).

All true.....I suppose I think some people dont know how.....they simply lack the ability, knowledge or drive to do so....so maybe the answer is in education.

I honestly cant remember that thread Huh.....I will check it out.

For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
You are your own emphasis.
So I say nothing.

-Bemore.
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10-02-2012, 06:15 PM
RE: Do we owe each other anything?
PS. I edited my previous post to provide you a link. Smile
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10-02-2012, 07:47 PM
RE: Do we owe each other anything?
The best one can do is to give of oneself without expectations of reward of any kind, not even a thank you.
The worst one can do is to demand others to do the same.

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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11-02-2012, 07:19 AM
RE: Do we owe each other anything?
(10-02-2012 05:21 PM)Observer Wrote:  this is "new thread worthy"

'll chew on it for a while and get back to you but for now my left brain lobe hurts

Good morning, Observer! Smile

How is your left brain today?

I hope I did not do it lasting damage? Big Grin
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11-02-2012, 04:48 PM
RE: Do we owe each other anything?
(11-02-2012 07:19 AM)Zat Wrote:  
(10-02-2012 05:21 PM)Observer Wrote:  this is "new thread worthy"

'll chew on it for a while and get back to you but for now my left brain lobe hurts

Good morning, Observer! Smile

How is your left brain today?

I hope I did not do it lasting damage? Big Grin
Ev'ning Zat.
The night rest did well...
Brain lobe 's kinda sensitive but if I don't touch it I'll be fine.

I figured that, if I want to reach a better understanding of the concept "responsibility" I’m going to have to define it just as I defined freedom. At least then I can defend the statements I make.

There IS something I want to get of my chest though.
But I know you like jokes, so fist I'll tell you a joke...

A sailor is getting his final oral exam taken by an elderly captain. Both men are on the deck of a ship and the captain asks the sailor some questions.
"Well son, what would you do if a storm would approach from the North." "I would throw out an anchor sir" The Sailor answers. "But what would you do if at that moment an other storm would come out of the west?" the captain wants to know. "No problem" the sailor says. "I’ll throw out a second anchor". "But", asks captain, "What if a third storm threatens us from the south". The young sailor says that he would throw out a third anchor. So the captain asks him again; What if we are so unlucky to have at that same moment a storm approaching from the east. Our fresh and young sailor says that he would throw out a forth anchor at which the captain says:
Son, where are you going to get all those anchors from?
The same spot you get al your storms from captain sir. The sailor replies.



Now the stuff that I want off my chest...
I have the feeling that you are trying to push people until they finally tell you what you want to hear. You might be right on your topic. Your solution might be the best thought over consideration possible. Still, people don't want to be pushed into thinking into a certain direction. Especially not when the only way to do this is to start a topic with a general question and then, as the thread grows, slowly tightening the analogy until it is SO specific that general questions are as good as irrelevant. It "feels" kinda dishonest.

Anyway.
I like your idea's and the fact that you're thought provoking. Only, for someone who posts in a community embracing rationalism and realism your "exams" are often unrealistic captain sir. Wink

Observer

Agnostic atheist
Secular humanist
Emotional rationalist
Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
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11-02-2012, 04:58 PM (This post was last modified: 11-02-2012 05:17 PM by Zat.)
RE: Do we owe each other anything?
(11-02-2012 04:48 PM)Observer Wrote:  Now the stuff that I want off my chest...
I have the feeling that you are trying to push people until they finally tell you what you want to hear. You might be right on your topic. Your solution might be the best thought over consideration possible. Still, people don't want to be pushed into thinking into a certain direction. Especially not when the only way to do this is to start a topic with a general question and then, as the thread grows, slowly tightening the analogy until it is SO specific that general questions are as good as irrelevant. It "feels" kinda dishonest.

Observer, you got me!

I admit, I am dishonestly pushing people.

Actually, I can't do much pushing over the internet, but I am pushing my keys as hard as I can.

And, lo and behold, people respond, by feeling 'pushed'!

The power I have! It is awesome!

Now, why don't we just all say what we mean (I always do) and then see where the conversation takes us?

Instead of arguing about who does what to whose ego?

I always liked the phrase: "If you find it too hot, get out of the kitchen".

I didn't mean you, personally, Observer, since I feel we have a good understanding.

But, recently, I have had to deal with some flak from people who don't like my style (see here).

Sorry guys, I am a lot more interested in substance than styles. Tongue

Please bear with me, I mean no harm! Big Grin

PS.

In science, when you are stating a general principle, all one needs to disprove it is a counter example for which the principle fails.

That is what I was trying to do with my ‘drowning kid’ example.

I could imagine it happening, maybe not exactly the same way, but I wanted to dramatize a situation when it is life-or-death and you have seconds to act.

Now you may find the example contrived, and unrealistic, but that is beside the point.

If I wanted to, I could dream up a different scenario that you would find more realistic. What the heck, you may think about one too.

That is not the point.

The point is imagining situations in which you might find yourself compelled to force another human being to do the right thing.

This happens in real life all the time.

That was the point and nothing else I said matters.
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11-02-2012, 05:47 PM
RE: Do we owe each other anything?
(11-02-2012 04:58 PM)Zat Wrote:  The point is imagining situations in which you might find yourself compelled to force another human being to do the right thing.

This happens in real life all the time.
to stay in our maritime context...
[Image: article-2087704-0F8141EA00000578-999_964x1138.jpg]
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