Do you Compartmentalize?
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10-05-2016, 12:05 PM
RE: Do you Compartmentalize?
(10-05-2016 11:13 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  You're a moron. Scientists have mouths to feed and mortgages to pay, and it doesn't matter WHAT their results are. Their jobs aren't dependent upon specific results or conclusions. Period. They get paid the same regardless of what conclusions they draw or what data they collect.

Their jobs are dependent on serving the interest of their employers, such as insuring that a particular study gains FDA approval, to bring a lucrative drug to market, even if the drug might not be any better than cheaper alternatives, or active placebos. Their jobs are dependent on producing the type of studies that are accepted by prestigious journals, that get circulated, gain attention, etc...

If they don't serve their employer's bottom lines they'll likely be replaced. Any particular scientists still has to play all the office politics, etc... to move up in the world, etc..

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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10-05-2016, 12:34 PM
RE: Do you Compartmentalize?
"Their jobs are dependent on serving the interest of their employers, such as insuring that a particular study gains FDA approval, to bring a lucrative drug to market, even if the drug might not be any better than cheaper alternatives, or active placebos. Their jobs are dependent on producing the type of studies that are accepted by prestigious journals, that get circulated, gain attention, etc..."

My job is to do and publish science. There is no pressure for specific types of results or specific conclusions. YOU asserting this, does not make it true. There is additional value placed on where I publish my research, but my job is NOT contingent upon manipulating my work to get it into high prestige journals.

Who do most scientific researchers work for? Universities and research institutions that have NO vested interest in specific results or conclusions. Doing and publishing science is how they keep their jobs. This is also why TENURE is a thing, because it PROTECTS researchers from losing their job because outside interests want to pressure them for specific types of results.

YOU wanting there to be a bias within science to manipulate data or results to "keep their jobs" is bullshit. The fact that there is pressure to publish and pressure to publish in high quality journals, means that researchers have to produce better research. Not that they are biased. Science is a process that seeks to eliminate bias. Peer review is another layer of the process where the intent is to remove bias.

"If they don't serve their employer's bottom lines they'll likely be replaced."

You are conflating technicians working for companies who perform scientific tests, with scientists who do peer-reviewed research. YOU don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

"Any particular scientists still has to play all the office politics, etc... to move up in the world, etc.."

Institutional politics are an irrelevant red herring.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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10-05-2016, 12:43 PM
RE: Do you Compartmentalize?
(10-05-2016 12:34 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  You are conflating technicians working for companies who perform scientific tests, with scientists who do peer-reviewed research. YOU don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

No, I'm speaking of scientist who work for private companies, government organizations, academia, etc.. They serve in the interest of their employers, just like everybody else.

Quote:Institutional politics are an irrelevant red herring.

Institutional politics are relevant for any particular profession.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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10-05-2016, 12:47 PM
RE: Do you Compartmentalize?
(10-05-2016 12:43 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(10-05-2016 12:34 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  You are conflating technicians working for companies who perform scientific tests, with scientists who do peer-reviewed research. YOU don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

No, I'm speaking of scientist who work for private companies, government organizations, academia, etc.. They serve in the interest of their employers, just like everybody else.

No, you're not. You clearly think you are, but you know jack-shit about science or scientists.

Scientists aren't beholden to their employers to produce specific results or draw specific conclusions. The circumstance of their employment, is NOT the same as the terms of your mechanic or a retail employee.

You don't know science (said the scientist telling you how science works)

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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10-05-2016, 12:48 PM
RE: Do you Compartmentalize?
"Institutional politics are relevant for any particular profession."

Your assertions and assumptions about injecting bias in science, are NOT a result of institutional politics.

You want science to be biased towards some sort of agenda, but all you do is continue to assert that it must be so.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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10-05-2016, 12:49 PM
RE: Do you Compartmentalize?
(10-05-2016 12:43 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  No, I'm speaking of scientist who work for private companies, government organizations, academia, etc.. They serve in the interest of their employers, just like everybody else.

Facepalm
You clearly have not one clue how academic (or medical) science works.
1. They teach and serve as graduate advisors.
2. The institution knew when they hired them, what their field of expertise was.

In general, there are many ways to show "productivity". The ones you list
and

Quote: If they don't serve their employer's bottom lines they'll likely be replaced. Any particular scientists still has to play all the office politics, etc... to move up in the world, etc.

is bullshit. What they have to do is be really good at what they do. That is all.
I realize there are probably none of those in Bible College.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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10-05-2016, 12:53 PM
RE: Do you Compartmentalize?
Here, tell me what internal politics predetermined my results or what bias is inherent in my research.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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10-05-2016, 12:54 PM
RE: Do you Compartmentalize?
(10-05-2016 12:43 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  No, I'm speaking of scientist who work for private companies, government organizations, academia, etc.. They serve in the interest of their employers, just like everybody else.

Seriously, can you not fucking read???

(10-05-2016 12:34 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Who do most scientific researchers work for? Universities and research institutions that have NO vested interest in specific results or conclusions. Doing and publishing science is how they keep their jobs. This is also why TENURE is a thing, because it PROTECTS researchers from losing their job because outside interests want to pressure them for specific types of results.

Are you even bothering to read the responses?

Despite what may have worked on the playground, saying "nuh-uh that aint true" does not count as a rebuttal.

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10-05-2016, 12:55 PM
RE: Do you Compartmentalize?
(10-05-2016 12:48 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  "Institutional politics are relevant for any particular profession."

Your assertions and assumptions about injecting bias in science, are NOT a result of institutional politics.

Again, interjecting biases into scientist. Institutional politics interject biases into employees of that institution. Scientists who are employees of that institution are no less impervious to this than others.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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10-05-2016, 01:01 PM
RE: Do you Compartmentalize?
(10-05-2016 12:54 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(10-05-2016 12:43 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  No, I'm speaking of scientist who work for private companies, government organizations, academia, etc.. They serve in the interest of their employers, just like everybody else.

Seriously, can you not fucking read???

(10-05-2016 12:34 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Who do most scientific researchers work for? Universities and research institutions that have NO vested interest in specific results or conclusions. Doing and publishing science is how they keep their jobs. This is also why TENURE is a thing, because it PROTECTS researchers from losing their job because outside interests want to pressure them for specific types of results.

Are you even bothering to read the responses?

Despite what may have worked on the playground, saying "nuh-uh that aint true" does not count as a rebuttal.

No, I'm just correcting responses unrelated to what I have stated, which is questions of biases and prejudices, of scientist eliminating their own biases in the process of their work. If there are no vested interest in a specific result or a conclusion in a particular study, then there wouldn't be any biases or prejudices to eliminate in the first place.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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