Do you beleive in the death penalty?
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31-03-2017, 08:54 AM
RE: Do you beleive in the death penalty?
When someone murders, or rapes and murders, or ruins dozens of lives by molesting children for years and is finally caught it is difficult to formulate a fitting punishment that metes out "justice" or balances the scales. If one inflicts this kind of pain the ripple effects for the victims, their families, and society at large are immeasurable. So what can we do about it? What do the victims and society gain by killing the person? The arguments FOR the death penalty are generally the following:

1. It's a deterrent, if people know they'll be executed they'll think twice before committing the crime
2. It's "justice" an eye for an eye and all that
3. It's preventative, if we get rid of the person they can't do it again

Personally I take a pragmatic rather than a moral position on the death penalty. It clearly is NOT a deterrent; murder, rape, child molestation, etc. happen every day. It's not justice - or at least the punishment can't possibly be equal to the crime, if you murder 10 people you can only be executed once. The only point above that is demonstrably true is the last one - if we kill the murderer he can't murder again. But given the corruption, the disparity of outcomes in the criminal justice system across racial and economic lines, I'm not sure this alone is worth state-sponsored killing.

I guess I'd be more inclined to support the death penalty if I felt it actually accomplished anything - but I don't. If someone murdered one of my sons, killing the person wouldn't bring him back. I would gain nothing by it.
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31-03-2017, 09:04 AM
RE: Do you beleive in the death penalty?
I don't like the word "believe" being used in debating positions, I like " it is my position that.....and here are the reasons I hold this position."

But as far as the death penalty. It is not cost effective to the tax payer alone. It is simply an act of emotional revenge by the state. I have seen too many times, not just with murder cases, but any accused crime, innocent people get charged. Even with cases where DNA there have been entire labs that were corrupt fudging the numbers for political gain.

If you are going to take away someone's freedom, there has to be quality control to give the accused or convicted recourse in case they are innocent and wrongly accused/convicted. The problem with all crimes and the state accusing someone, is that especially if you are poor, you don't have equal resources as compared to the prosecution. This makes it easier for the state to convict you.

The poor and especially minority poor get hurt by this economic inequality. It can even put the mentally ill in prison when they really should be put in a mental institution. I am all for putting criminals in prison and most certainly for putting murderers in prison, but not the wrong person.

Just on tax payers economics alone, it is a bad idea. It costs far more to the tax payers to prosecute a death penalty case than it is to simply put them in prison for life with no parole. The initial trial costs more and all the appeals cost more. The high profile cases we often see are not the majority of accusations/convictions for murder. Most accused are not say Ted Bundy or or Dillon Roof.

I personally have had contact with two former death row people. One was in prison for another crime, another inmate was murdered, and the only reason this guy got convicted for murder was based on the testimony of another prisoner. People in prison will lie about each other to get lighter sentences or go get more privilege while there.That guy had his conviction changed to life in prison.

The other guy convicted, had his case thrown out because the investigators did a sloppy job investigating and the prosecutors did not disclose everything to the defense attorney. I think far too much of society gets stuck on the high profile national cases, but there is far too much risk, even today, even with other crimes, that we never hear of where the courts and investigators rush to gain a conviction.

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31-03-2017, 09:11 AM
RE: Do you beleive in the death penalty?
(31-03-2017 08:54 AM)Mr. Boston Wrote:  I guess I'd be more inclined to support the death penalty if I felt it actually accomplished anything - but I don't. If someone murdered one of my sons, killing the person wouldn't bring him back. I would gain nothing by it.

In this case I always keep saying, I would murder them with my own bare hands. But society isn't obliged to carry out my revenge in an obscence ritual. The state is obliged to keep it's citizens safe by taking these offenders from the streets. Not to kill them as some lofty form of retribution. That really achieves nothing besides turning the state into a killer too.
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31-03-2017, 09:13 AM (This post was last modified: 31-03-2017 09:27 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Do you beleive in the death penalty?
I don't think the death penalty is a good idea.
1. I don't want to participate in the death of humans, nor do I think the State should. Purely selfish motive.
2. The appeals and court processes are very expensive ... more expensive than "locking them up, and throwing away the key".
3. The idea that "justice is available" is basically false. "Balancing the scales" is simply revenge. It is a false idea that a state of justice can be brought about, or "returned" to.
It's just the way it is. When a drunk fool killed my best friend, and everyone said "Aren't you going to his trial ?", I said "no". Nothing can change the fact that he's gone, and not coming back.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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31-03-2017, 09:15 AM
RE: Do you beleive in the death penalty?
(31-03-2017 09:11 AM)abaris Wrote:  
(31-03-2017 08:54 AM)Mr. Boston Wrote:  I guess I'd be more inclined to support the death penalty if I felt it actually accomplished anything - but I don't. If someone murdered one of my sons, killing the person wouldn't bring him back. I would gain nothing by it.

In this case I always keep saying, I would murder them with my own bare hands. But society isn't obliged to carry out my revenge in an obscence ritual. The state is obliged to keep it's citizens safe by taking these offenders from the streets. Not to kill them as some lofty form of retribution. That really achieves nothing besides turning the state into a killer too.

America, outside the Middle East are what? One of only a few western states with it? As advanced and more open we like to brag about here, we still are stuck on the same theocratic god of Abraham retribution the Middle East theocracies are even worse with. I agree, it solves nothing, not economically nor does it bring the dead back.

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31-03-2017, 10:42 AM
RE: Do you beleive in the death penalty?
There appears to be a slight misappropriation of purpose in reading the replies above. As I percive it the death penalty is first and formost the price one pays for the crime, not to discourage others. You did the heinous crime, you pay the fine.

So even with the process exceeding over a decade to bring the sentance to an end, some simply adapt to their new environment with many freedoms that their victims will never enjoy again.

You have to be odd to be #1.
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31-03-2017, 10:52 AM
RE: Do you beleive in the death penalty?
(31-03-2017 10:42 AM)BackSlider Wrote:  There appears to be a slight misappropriation of purpose in reading the replies above. As I percive it the death penalty is first and formost the price one pays for the crime, not to discourage others. You did the heinous crime, you pay the fine.

Not really a fine to those like McVeigh who actively seek it. If the criminal wants to die because of guilt or whatever reason the fitting punishment is to not let them.

#sigh
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31-03-2017, 10:58 AM
RE: Do you beleive in the death penalty?
(31-03-2017 10:42 AM)BackSlider Wrote:  There appears to be a slight misappropriation of purpose in reading the replies above. As I percive it the death penalty is first and formost the price one pays for the crime, not to discourage others. You did the heinous crime, you pay the fine.

In short, a revenge killing. It serves no other purpose. That's an established fact.
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31-03-2017, 11:00 AM
RE: Do you beleive in the death penalty?
I don't like it because it's irreversible and the potential to use it on innocent people. It is also more likely to be applied in a biased way to people of color.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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31-03-2017, 11:02 AM
RE: Do you beleive in the death penalty?
(31-03-2017 11:00 AM)tomilay Wrote:  I don't like it because it's irreversible and the potential to use it on innocent people. It is also more likely to be applied in a biased way to people of color.

I wouldn't even take color as the major determining fact. The most common denominator seems to be poverty and being unable to get represantation being worth it's name.

Is there even one rich person on death row?
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