Do you believe in “Innocent until proven guilty”?
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05-02-2012, 12:25 PM
RE: Do you believe in “Innocent until proven guilty”?
(05-02-2012 12:21 PM)Peterkin Wrote:  Believe in?

Oh NO!!!

I used the forbidden (by myself) expression!

Mea Culpa (old habits die hard Undecided )

Big Grin
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05-02-2012, 01:31 PM
False choice....
(05-02-2012 07:33 AM)Zat Wrote:  If you hear that some guy (a naturalized citizen of your own country) with an Arabic sounding name, was behaving suspiciously, had traveled in Afghanistan in mysterious circumstances, applied for immigration to the US or Canada (10 years ago) with a false passport, and then was anonymously accused by a neighbor as a “possible terrorist” – what do you recommend:

A. Innocent until proven guilty
B. Give him an opportunity to explain, then check out his answers and let him go if his answers check out and make sense (like he was escaping persecution)
C. Give him a speedy trial if you think there is a case against him that will stand up in court
D. Throw him in jail, without trial, without access to information about the case against him, and then leave him there for years or decades and just plain forget that he exists (except for the constant and sadistic ‘enhanced interrogation’)
E. Send him to a third world country, famous of its torturing techniques, together with a list of questions they should ask him

The correct answer is A+B+C.
The presumption of innocence is a given under common law.
The suspicious behavior warrants investigation.
If the investigation yields sufficient evidence, the the suspect is bound over for trial.

D and E are not acceptable under the U.S. Constitution or the U.N. Charter of Rights.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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05-02-2012, 02:31 PM
RE: False choice....
(05-02-2012 07:33 AM)Zat Wrote:  D. Throw him in jail, without trial, without access to information about the case against him, and then leave him there for years or decades and just plain forget that he exists.
.

President Barack Obama rang in the New Year by signing the NDAA law with its provision allowing him to indefinitely detain citizens. It was a symbolic moment, to say the least. With Americans distracted with drinking and celebrating, Obama signed one of the greatest rollbacks of civil liberties in the history of our country … and citizens partied in unwitting bliss into the New Year.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/...an-liberty

Sounds eeirly similar to this

After months of hearings, debates, votes and amendments, the proposed legislation, with 30 sections, was enacted as the Federal Reserve Act. The House, on December 22, 1913[7], agreed to the conference report on the Federal Reserve Act bill by a vote of 298 yeas to 60 nays, with 76 not voting. The Senate, on December 23, 1913, agreed to it by a vote of 43 yeas to 25 nays with 27 not voting. The record shows that there were no Democrats voting "nay" in the Senate and only two in the House. The record also shows that almost all of those not voting for the bill had previously declared their intentions and were paired with members of opposite intentions.[8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_Act

Anyway......thats enough of my conspiracy minded views and I will go on and answer the question.

I think everybody wishes to believe that this is the case......except wether we all like to admit it or not we do actually stereotype (just like the example given by Zat about the family on the airplane)

I wonder if you was to see a cuacasian female walking down the street with a backpack that was ticking and had wires sticking out of it.....would you think they could be a possible bomber.

Would it arouse the same suspicion within you if you was to see a Woman wearing a burka with exactly the same backpack that was ticking and had wires sticking out of it???

I will be the first to admit that I would presume that the "muslim" who has been demonised by the press since 9/11 would be more "guilty" of being a bomber more than the caucasian white person.

So yeah I think that the term "innocent until proven guilty" is a correct one......wether we all live by this in our thoughts is another entirely different kettle of fish.

For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
You are your own emphasis.
So I say nothing.

-Bemore.
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05-02-2012, 02:33 PM
RE: Do you believe in “Innocent until proven guilty”?
Boy is that a loaded question!! Yes I do but we have lost it here. The NDAA has taken away that right.
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05-02-2012, 02:47 PM
RE: Do you believe in “Innocent until proven guilty”?
(05-02-2012 02:33 PM)N.E.OhioAtheist Wrote:  Boy is that a loaded question!!

You would be surprised (and shocked) about how many people making comments on a news channel on the internet, after an article reporting a similar event sneer: "lock him up and throw away the key!"

I know otherwise perfectly decent people who say things like: "I rather a few innocents get punished than risk being blown up!"

It is not loaded at all, only too realistic, unfortunately! Sad
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05-02-2012, 04:23 PM
RE: Do you believe in “Innocent until proven guilty”?
(05-02-2012 02:47 PM)Zat Wrote:  I know otherwise perfectly decent people who say things like: "I rather a few innocents get punished than risk being blown

It's a cowardly state of affairs, for certain. I think Ben Franklin said it best: "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

"Fanatic ethnic or religious or national identifications are a little difficult to support when we see our planet as a fragile blue crescent fading to become an inconspicuous point of light against the bastion and citadel of the stars." - Carl Sagan
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06-02-2012, 11:36 AM
RE: Do you believe in “Innocent until proven guilty”?
Absolutely. We are much better off with a system that lets the guilty go than one that punishes the innocent. I realize innocent people still get convicted but the number is far fewer that if we had a 'guilty until innocent' system. I'm also anti-death penalty. IMO if 1 innocent person gets the death penalty then it's not worth having. Statistically we are bound to have killed a few non deservers in our time.

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

-Mark Twain
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06-02-2012, 11:54 AM
RE: Do you believe in “Innocent until proven guilty”?
To many so called murders got the death penalty only later to find out they were innocent. You only have to look at our history to see how wrong it is. I'm with germanyt on this one. I'm no bleeding heart liberal either. I'm not a tree huger! I hunt and have guns. I've even trapped till my back couldn't handle it. I know I'm a stone cold killer of animals. But that's another topic.
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06-02-2012, 11:54 AM
RE: Do you believe in “Innocent until proven guilty”?
(06-02-2012 11:36 AM)germanyt Wrote:  Absolutely. We are much better off with a system that lets the guilty go than one that punishes the innocent. I realize innocent people still get convicted but the number is far fewer that if we had a 'guilty until innocent' system. I'm also anti-death penalty. IMO if 1 innocent person gets the death penalty then it's not worth having. Statistically we are bound to have killed a few non deservers in our time.

I agree. Whilst people may argue that detective work has become more sophisticated with DNA and forensics and such.....that the chances of innocent people getting executed are lesser. I dont agree with the death penalty anyway as like you rightly said innocent people can die plus its not really a deterent is it......People will still commit certain crimes wether they know they will die or not.

In the UK though the police over here do actually need a lot of evidence to get a conviction.....it needs to be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are guilty...whilst I agree with this there are of course exceptions where people get away either on little technicalities or just not enough evidence.

For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
You are your own emphasis.
So I say nothing.

-Bemore.
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06-02-2012, 12:38 PM (This post was last modified: 06-02-2012 12:55 PM by satan69.)
RE: Do you believe in “Innocent until proven guilty”?
Just because someone is muslim, doesn't mean they are going to fly a plane in a building. if anything, those types of terrorists, other than the shoe bomber, are going to try and blend in and not draw attention to themselves like the 9/11 group. When Bin Laden sent his 13 guys out, I'm sure he said NO PRAYING TO ALLAH ON THE PLANE! Shave and look like the others!

Mcveigh was a white guy with a shaved head. I actually look like him. I have his build and bone structure. I actually had a air marshall come sit next to me on a flight and start asking me 20 questions. the flight attendant must of told her that i was acting weird. I guess being exhausted from flying 13 hours and 2 or 3 connections makes you act like a terrorist when you have a shaved head. Ron Paul said it best. If we put a cop on every person , the crime rate would be almost zero, but would you want you rights violated like that. Observer's parents were murdered. If there was a cop watching every person in the world, his parents would still be alive today, but i don't think he would want that, even if it meant losing his parents all over again.
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