Do you believe in Capital Punishment?
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02-09-2011, 02:47 PM
 
RE: Do you believe in Capital Punishment?
Sy, I don't know if your misrepresenting my arguments is accidental or deliberate.

However, since I don't seem to be able to get them across to you, I will stop trying.

I have said everything I wanted to say on the subject, my posts speak for themselves, there is no point repeating them.

You can review them at your leisure and maybe reflect on some of them -- or not.

Smile
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02-09-2011, 03:10 PM
RE: Do you believe in Capital Punishment?
(02-09-2011 02:47 PM)Zatamon Wrote:  Sy, I don't know if your misrepresenting my arguments is accidental or deliberate.
How am I misrepresenting your argument?

Quote:I have said everything I wanted to say on the subject, my posts speak for themselves, there is no point repeating them.

You can review them at your leisure and maybe reflect on some of them -- or not.

Smile
I don't find your argument compelling so far.

English is not my first language. If you think I am being mean, ask me. It could be just a wording problem.
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02-09-2011, 04:31 PM
RE: Do you believe in Capital Punishment?
(02-09-2011 07:34 AM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  Which is mercy Zatamon? Death or extended punishment? If someone is going to live their life in a cell or die, it's hard to say which is actually worse. I will admit that those in death row are extremely fearful of death, but it's hard to really suggest which is worse. I am simply discussing things through a societal needs view. The health of those who are not even allowed to contribute to society means little as compared to those who are more capable of contributing. A lifer is never going to help society again, society should not help the lifer. Yeah it's cold and yeah it would be upsetting to happen to know one, but cold i part of life. Existence is not generally about compassion and fairness. Humans desire compassion and fairness but often existence is simply about survival. In the world of survival a man who went against the group would be killed, you know why? his actions might kill everyone. We just happen to live a life of comforts after transcending the survivalist system. Now we can see someone committing those same acts as only being in need of a lesson. There are small crimes and large crimes. I am not an advocate of very much across the board and not an advocate for extreme punishment, (to me death is more a relief than a punishment) but it is truly a question which is better served.

Is a man who has been committed to prison for his entire life going to be better dead or alive? and along with that which will help those not committed to prison? If a man in his 20's is sentenced to life imprisonment without a chance for parole (whole life not 20 years) is it just to expect the entire community to support this person as long as he continues to breathe? It is indeed unjust to leave prisoners in squalor while alive and let them gain diseases due to rarely being fed and getting no medical attention. But if they can die then it's a different question. A death administered as painlessly as possible is still giving someone as many rights as possible while alive while still seeking further benefit to society than to an individual who has committed too much of a crime. Yes sometimes crimes are arbitrary, but once you are given a life imprisonment it doesn't matter how arbitrary the decision is it has completely changed your life. Even 20 years is often a nonredeemable loss. Plenty of young people go to prison and make it out only to see the outside world as worse than prison.

There are points in life where things are already taken too far. What's the difference in which expression of too far we take? Prisons are shown to more often engender criminalization than reformation. When we commit a person to years of imprisonment we are telling them to be a criminal, that's how the world views them. And often enough that's exactly how they begin to see the world as it is constantly reinforced within the system.

I'm not going to say that prison life is hell. it's actually a pretty simple world to live in once you get accustomed. I've never been but I've discussed it with plenty of people who have. I don't think I'd survive but that's because I'm a bit too female to be sent to a cell full of men. The issue with prison is that it stays the same as the world changes. When a person who has been imprisoned for even 5 years comes out they are excessively far beyond the progress that has happened during their departure from the modern world.The hope of parole exists even in those who feel accustomed to prison, the issue with this hope is that if the outside world is seen as more of a prison then there i no reason to hope again.

http://www.animeultima.tv/rainbow-nisha-...sh-subbed/
Here's a very interesting story about those who are wrongly convicted. I like television because there is less interpretation involved. It's about the children of Japan during WWII who get arrested and put in jail after losing their families and not having any real reason to do things as they should. It shows both the difficulties of their life in prison and the difficulties of their life outside of prison. I thought it was a great commentary on the effects. Some of you might enjoy watching it.

(If anyone has trouble watching the video you can find alternative videos underneath the watch area. I like this site because I have very rarely been completely unable to watchething. I also have not run into big viruses which is often an issue with streaming.)

Lilith.
Many of your comments are interesting, as they are controversial.
I may be wrong but like the philosopher writer Albert Camus, you seem to feel a sense of absurdity in existence.
Are we looking for sense in a senseless world?
If all is pretty crazy it is difficult to justify the non crazy other than by personal preference.
R.d Laing saw schizophrenia as a cry by the so called afflicted against the uncaring mores of a heartless society.
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03-09-2011, 04:17 AM
 
RE: Do you believe in Capital Punishment?
Of the 194 independent states that are UN members (or have UN observer status): as of 5 May 2011 executions have been reported in the following 9 countries during 2011:

Bangladesh
China
Iran
North Korea
the Palestinian Authority
Saudi Arabia
Somalia
UAE
USA

One wonders what else these countries have in common?

The following 23 countries carried out executions in 2010: Bahrain (1), Bangladesh (9+), Belarus (2), Botswana (1), China (2000+), Egypt (4), Equatorial Guinea (4), Iran (252+), Iraq (1+), Japan (2), Libya (18+), Malaysia (1+), North Korea (60+), Palestinian Authority (5), Saudi Arabia (27+), Singapore (1+), Somalia (8+), Sudan (6+), Syria (17+), Taiwan (4), USA (46+), Vietnam (1+), Yemen (53+)

You will notice that only 4 countries: China, Iran, North Korea and Yemen killed more people than the USA.

See more details here
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03-09-2011, 05:39 AM
RE: Do you believe in Capital Punishment?
In the UK you can be convicted of murder and get life imprisonment yet only serve 15 years, half taken off automatically. So I can see the frustration of people when some scumbag kills someone and does seven years. On the other hand I don't think we should be executing people for a couple of reasons:

1 The wrong people have been convicted in the past and indeed executed in the past and possibly are still being executed. Humans are error prone and no matter how good the evidence there is still an element of error.

2 Most Juries at least in the UK would be very unlikely to convict a person of murder knowing that they may be executed. There would in fact be less convictions.

3 The death penalty is not a deterrent this has been shown many times. Therefore the only reason to execute anyone is revenge and money. Revenge makes the state as bad as the murderer money is an even worse reason. It makes the state a mercenary on behalf of the people.

Therefore life imprisonment should mean life for 1st degree murders. The prisoner should be made to work for his food etc to offset the costs. This is actually a better punishment in my opinion as execution is an easy way out. The prisoner has no hope of release.
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03-09-2011, 06:14 AM
 
RE: Do you believe in Capital Punishment?
(02-09-2011 03:10 PM)sy2502 Wrote:  I don't find your argument compelling so far.

PS.

I find it significant that the only words you wrote in ALL CAPITALS, in all your posts, are in the following sentence:

Quote:But now this guy is going to be in jail for 50 years AT MY EXPENSES and everyone else's.

@Lwio: Brilliant summary -- concise, precise, convincing.
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03-09-2011, 08:38 AM
RE: Do you believe in Capital Punishment?
MONEY, in America, sits at the right hand of GOD; on his left is NIMBY - this is the axis of selective blindness.

Crime is part of the GDP.
Both the criminals and the law-enforcement are products of the society; both express the values of the society.
Staging a ritual of vengeance may be satisfying to one culture, while early intervention in psychosis may appeal to another.
Profitable and dangerous prisons may be considered cost-effective by one society, while another sends offenders to labour-camps.
I could design a prison that sustains itself and rehabilitates inmates... but it wouldn't fit our current political, economic and cultural agendas. I could show a hundred places in any North American city where a relatively small investment would, in one decade, save ten times the money in crime and policing... but those have been discussed for years, with no action taken.

Societies don't just get the crime and justice they deserve, they get the crime and justice they want. That takes a generation, or longer, to change.

If you pray to anything, you're prey to anything.
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03-09-2011, 10:45 AM
RE: Do you believe in Capital Punishment?
Wonderful thought woof and I pretty much follow your supposition, though I'm not really that worried about the fact that things are absurd.

Some of my points here. While I am advocating the death sentence, part of the reason is that the current system must become abhorrent before people have a chance of correcting it. If they detest it they will make something better.

Also more than money what is important to me are the basic needs. Prisoners needs are met, lawful citizens needs are not met. The resources in prisons would often be better served for those who are lawful but currently incapable of attaining their needs.

I'm not heartless and evil I just don't tend to feel one person should be valued over many, and usually look towards utilitarianism. Also I am always willing to be one of the sacrificed in my proposals.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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03-09-2011, 12:07 PM
 
RE: Do you believe in Capital Punishment?
(03-09-2011 10:45 AM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  Prisoners needs are met, lawful citizens needs are not met.

Lilith, I know what you mean, but you will have to forgive me -- I can't ever resist a straight line -- many lawful citizens should be in prison, even executed (if I believed in the death sentence) for starting wars and causing genocides, and many who were imprisoned for braking immoral laws (like refusing military service in an unjust war, blowing the whistle on 'national security' bullshit or other extreme acts of protests) should be given medals.
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03-09-2011, 03:05 PM
 
RE: Do you believe in Capital Punishment?
I have recently bought a full set of the M*A*S*H TV series.

I am on the fifth season now, watching about 4 episodes a day.

Watching it, I catch myself thinking that it ought to be compulsory viewing in high school.

I can’t imagine how anyone could justify war after watching that series.

That got me thinking.

What are some of us old people doing on these forums?

Then I had the answer: we are passing the torch on to the next generation.

It has been going on for thousands of years: stories of human conscience kept alive, passed on from generation to generation, always inspiring a few who would pick up the torch and carry on.

Without this, the flame may have gone out a long time ago, we all could be pragmatic modern people using death-row prisoners for medical experiments or crash-test dummies.

It will never save the world, but it is important that the flame of human conscience is kept alive. As long as there is that flame, there is still hope that one day our species will redeem itself.
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