Do you believe in the divinity of nature/life?
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04-03-2017, 04:09 PM
RE: Do you believe in the divinity of nature/life?
(04-03-2017 03:58 PM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  
(04-03-2017 03:54 PM)Larai19 Wrote:  Let me make sure I'm following you, very quickly so I don't misinterpret what you meant like I did previously.

Are you saying that consciousness correlates with the concept of souls?

To a degree.

Well, cognitive neuroscience explains perception, thinking, memory and our retention of language. We use neuroimaging to correlate the brain to altered states of conscious experiences. When you die, your brain shuts off. If consciousness relates to the brain and the brain ceases to work and you cease to be conscious how can consciousness be a soul? Assuming we are using the same concept for souls?
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04-03-2017, 04:21 PM
RE: Do you believe in the divinity of nature/life?
(04-03-2017 04:09 PM)Larai19 Wrote:  
(04-03-2017 03:58 PM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  To a degree.

Well, cognitive neuroscience explains perception, thinking, memory and our retention of language. We use neuroimaging to correlate the brain to altered states of conscious experiences. When you die, your brain shuts off. If consciousness relates to the brain and the brain ceases to work and you cease to be conscious how can consciousness be a soul? Assuming we are using the same concept for souls?

Mmmm yes. I'd be inclined towards that way of thinking myself but Goethe made an outstanding argument. In that he noted that all of our senses 'perceive' surely then the brain must also be a tool for perceiving 'consciousness'.

You even use the word perception in your own post. Our brain perceives these things, so if our brain shuts off, if we die. Does the light that emanates from the stars die with us, that our eyes perceive? So if our brain perceives consciousness as our eyes perceive light, and what we call 'conscious awareness' our awareness of our consciousness may indeed end. But will that consciousness itself end, if it is something our brain perceives instead of creating?
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04-03-2017, 04:43 PM
RE: Do you believe in the divinity of nature/life?
(04-03-2017 04:21 PM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  
(04-03-2017 04:09 PM)Larai19 Wrote:  Well, cognitive neuroscience explains perception, thinking, memory and our retention of language. We use neuroimaging to correlate the brain to altered states of conscious experiences. When you die, your brain shuts off. If consciousness relates to the brain and the brain ceases to work and you cease to be conscious how can consciousness be a soul? Assuming we are using the same concept for souls?

Mmmm yes. I'd be inclined towards that way of thinking myself but Goethe made an outstanding argument. In that he noted that all of our senses 'perceive' surely then the brain must also be a tool for perceiving 'consciousness'.
---

Only one's own consciousness. Shy

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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04-03-2017, 04:48 PM
RE: Do you believe in the divinity of nature/life?
(04-03-2017 04:21 PM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  
(04-03-2017 04:09 PM)Larai19 Wrote:  Well, cognitive neuroscience explains perception, thinking, memory and our retention of language. We use neuroimaging to correlate the brain to altered states of conscious experiences. When you die, your brain shuts off. If consciousness relates to the brain and the brain ceases to work and you cease to be conscious how can consciousness be a soul? Assuming we are using the same concept for souls?

Mmmm yes. I'd be inclined towards that way of thinking myself but Goethe made an outstanding argument. In that he noted that all of our senses 'perceive' surely then the brain must also be a tool for perceiving 'consciousness'.

You even use the word perception in your own post. Our brain perceives these things, so if our brain shuts off, if we die. Does the light that emanates from the stars die with us, that our eyes perceive? So if our brain perceives consciousness as our eyes perceive light, and what we call 'conscious awareness' our awareness of our consciousness may indeed end. But will that consciousness itself end, if it is something our brain perceives instead of creating?

I understand your reasoning but I do not believe it to be correct. Perception by definition is the identification and interpretation of information delivered by sensory input. I know I am conscious because I am sentiment and as evolution might have it, I can recognize this as opposed to things with less advanced brains. I can perceive myself, thereby I am technically conscious of my consciousness. But when that consciousness is inevitably taken away it's not possible for the consciousness to be transferable. It's not sensory like sight or noise.
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04-03-2017, 04:53 PM
RE: Do you believe in the divinity of nature/life?
(04-03-2017 02:53 PM)kim Wrote:  
Quote:do any of you believe in something divine?

As an adjective, sometimes but a noun, no.

Quote:why not?

I can describe Persimmons as being divine. And yes, Persimmons are divine.
However, I do not prescribe to them any supernatural powers.

They certainly taste divineDrooling
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04-03-2017, 07:22 PM
RE: Do you believe in the divinity of nature/life?
(04-03-2017 04:21 PM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  In that he noted that all of our senses 'perceive' surely then the brain must also be a tool for perceiving 'consciousness'.

The brain-as-receiver hypothesis does not fit the data.

(04-03-2017 04:21 PM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  So if our brain perceives consciousness as our eyes perceive light

It doesn't.

(04-03-2017 04:21 PM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  But will that consciousness itself end

Yes.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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04-03-2017, 08:12 PM
RE: Do you believe in the divinity of nature/life?
(04-03-2017 01:40 PM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  So there's that, my question is now, do any of you believe in something divine? If yes or no, why or why not?
There is a concept that some people use called (usually capitalized) The Divine, which is to be distinguished from "divine" the adjective. It is sort of a metaphor for something that provides subjective feelings of transcendence of the human condition. It means different things to different people. It might pull in various new-agey concepts like nondual awareness or egolessness. It may or may not involve specific beliefs in deities, but it tends to be wooish and subjective and involves some form of disengaging the intellect.

Personally I see no need for such things. I see the concept as a way of clinging to one's status of special snowflake that is often drummed into people by religion, and/or clinging to overdetermined idealism in general.

The only way you can actually transcend human limitations is to not be driven all over the map by the rampant confirmation bias and cognitive distortions and primal emotion-laden drives that is part of being human -- but rather to systematically control for these as much as possible. To be fooled as little as possible. I wish people would focus on reality rather than try to escape from it.
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04-03-2017, 08:44 PM
RE: Do you believe in the divinity of nature/life?
(04-03-2017 03:22 PM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  
(04-03-2017 03:10 PM)Jay Vogelsong Wrote:  No, I do not believe that nature or anything else is divine. I gave up on pantheism as a possibility when I gave up on gods in general.

If you considered how some insects procreate, neither would you. Yuck.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cochliomyia_hominivorax

To a city dweller, shit is probably one of the most foul things they can imagine, but to a farmer, dung is seen as one of the greatest fertilizers imaginable and whats more is that it is all natural. A symbiotic relationship between plants and animals.

Similarly the way some species on this planet procreate might seem disgusting to us, but the act of procreation is the what melds what we think of as a void into our own conscious awareness that we call life. If we had evolved from these flies that procreates in this manner I do not think we would find it very disturbing at all. It is after all a matter of perspective.

Truly if you wanted to bring an example of disgust to my attention it would be the ability of people and animals to inflict pain on one another. But that is a matter of the struggle of life as well as free will.

So the Bubonic Plague was divine? It killed 50 million people worldwide in an agonizing, horrifying death. It killed indiscriminately. Was the Spanish flu divine? Five hundred million people were infected with it and between 20 and 50 million people died from it. Was this divine or was it a natural process with no end purpose?

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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04-03-2017, 09:58 PM (This post was last modified: 04-03-2017 10:06 PM by Full Circle.)
RE: Do you believe in the divinity of nature/life?
“Do you believe in the divinity of nature/life?” = self-refuting and contradictory.

It is either natural or divine.

di·vine1
dəˈvīn/
adjective
1.
of, from, or like God or a god.

nat·u·ral
ˈnaCH(ə)rəl/
adjective
1.
existing in or caused by nature; not made or caused by humankind.


And since I haven’t seen any reason to suspect a divinity then all things are natural but then you know this and you are just playing with semantics. Drinking Beverage

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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04-03-2017, 10:08 PM
RE: Do you believe in the divinity of nature/life?
(04-03-2017 02:05 PM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  Divine - godlike. Being that almost every god in human history was gifted with powers over the forces of nature it seems much more logical that nature isn't like gods but that gods are much more like nature. So gods should perhaps be referred to as 'naturelike'
Gods supposedly control nature. They decide when and how to use it. Nature just is. It's not godlike at all and it has no decision-making ability.

And no, I don't believe in anything divine. (Although chocolate comes close. Tongue )

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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