Do you have pets?
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24-09-2012, 05:29 PM
RE: Do you have pets?
Dog crapped in the house again... DOG CRAPPED in the house again... twice on one day! Da fuck?
Not sure what else to do anymore. We read up that she needs to be supervised all the time so at any sign of toilet we can grab the lease and go outside.
She was good for a few days. Then we had her run around the neighbour's garden (it is closed so she can't get in danger) and since then she stopped listening and started pooing in the house again.
Well, so today I had a proper walk with her and was very strict all day long, and she is slowly going back to normal.
We have her outside for a few hours a day, and she craps in the corner outside during that time, today we had her outside for only 2 hours, after that I walked her, trained sit with her, and so on.
A lot of mentally exhausting stuff for the dog.
I made her resist the urge to charge for the neighbour's goats (another neighbour).
Made her sit,
made her walk next to me or behind me just not in front.
I made her sit everytime I crossed the road. And I crossed the road like 10 times, because I want her to know that at the road she has to sit down and be calm before we cross.
I did not let her sniff around when we walked, simply to proof her the point of "I am in charge, and you will sniff when I decide so".

Now this all sounds pretty harsh, but she is a dog, not a human, she needs a different treatment. I am not being mean to her, and she doesn't hate me. She actually looks forward to seeing me, she receives her petting and her treats etc. She simply receives it when she was a good girl and only when she is calm submissive (stole the calm submissive from Cesar Milan heh).
Yep, I watch the dog whisperer, and it does work the way he shows it. Kinda fan.
I am going to film the dog a bit tomorrow. I wanna show you her both sides. Hope it's gonna work with the vid.

"Freedom is the freedom to say that 2+2=4" - George Orwell (in 1984)
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24-09-2012, 06:46 PM
RE: Do you have pets?
(24-09-2012 05:29 PM)Leela Wrote:  Dog crapped in the house again... DOG CRAPPED in the house again... twice on one day! Da fuck?
Not sure what else to do anymore. We read up that she needs to be supervised all the time so at any sign of toilet we can grab the lease and go outside.
She was good for a few days. Then we had her run around the neighbour's garden (it is closed so she can't get in danger) and since then she stopped listening and started pooing in the house again.
Well, so today I had a proper walk with her and was very strict all day long, and she is slowly going back to normal.
We have her outside for a few hours a day, and she craps in the corner outside during that time, today we had her outside for only 2 hours, after that I walked her, trained sit with her, and so on.
A lot of mentally exhausting stuff for the dog.
I made her resist the urge to charge for the neighbour's goats (another neighbour).
Made her sit,
made her walk next to me or behind me just not in front.
I made her sit everytime I crossed the road. And I crossed the road like 10 times, because I want her to know that at the road she has to sit down and be calm before we cross.
I did not let her sniff around when we walked, simply to proof her the point of "I am in charge, and you will sniff when I decide so".

Now this all sounds pretty harsh, but she is a dog, not a human, she needs a different treatment. I am not being mean to her, and she doesn't hate me. She actually looks forward to seeing me, she receives her petting and her treats etc. She simply receives it when she was a good girl and only when she is calm submissive (stole the calm submissive from Cesar Milan heh).
Yep, I watch the dog whisperer, and it does work the way he shows it. Kinda fan.
I am going to film the dog a bit tomorrow. I wanna show you her both sides. Hope it's gonna work with the vid.

1. get a crate

2. feed her in the evening before your bed time and then put her in the crate overnight. All very lovingly, with something to chew on in the crate. If she complains, live with it, she'll stop sooner or later.

3. When you get up, take her outside immediately. Go to a spot where you like the poop to be. Stay there until she poops. No matter how long. Take a book, whatever. When she pees and poops, both time get super excited and love her up good. You are outside yourself with joy. Halleluja! Show her lots of excitement. I can't stress that enough. Happy, happy times! Jump around.

4. Take her to that spot a couple more times that day, but you can give up if she doesn't poop then. She may only need to once a day, but give her the chance.

5. After just a few poops there she will have gotten the point.

6. ALWAYS consider that something may be wrong physically if a dog that was previously house broken suddenly isn't. Was there a diet change? Stress she isn't used to? Does she act happy? If you stress her out over pooping it will get worse, I guarantee it.

Showing a dog you are the boss is sometimes necessary, but NOT when it comes to pooping.
Nothing stays in her head all day. 3 minutes after the fact she has NO CLUE what's up!
Dogs think directly. First a, then b, a relates to b. Then b then c, c relates to b. A has disappeared. Poof.

Please work with rewards. and make rewards as well as corrections instantly. They are useless later. As soon as another thing happens, the incident has gone poof.
And another thing is anything, you scratch your head, now the correction relates to your scratching your head.

Dogs can recognize things that repeat themselves. But they cannot go from A to C. Only one step.

Showing her you're the boss all day because she pooped herself makes no sense at all, it just makes for an insecure dog who is likely to poop herself.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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25-09-2012, 04:01 AM (This post was last modified: 25-09-2012 04:04 AM by Leerob.)
RE: Do you have pets?
I didn't show her I am boss because she pooped. I showed her I am boss because she misbehaved for two whole days after we let her run in the neighbours garden and had to relearn the rules in our family. She completely forgot that she is supposed to be calm inside and outside. She basically forgot everything we taught her over this one run. But I do understand that she can't understand certain things or make certain connections.
I can't do that for 5 minutes and let her run crazy the rest of the day. I have to be consistent because, as you said yourself, when things are always the same that is when it gets stuck in her brain.
I told my hun that we are not letting her run in the garden again until she knows "come" and "sit", it is just too dangerous, we are living on a busy main road.

Now about the pooping:
The poop is unrelated to my bossy behaviour (I feel the need to point it out once more). I clean it up and take her out.
She was not housebroken when we got her. She is already 1.5 years old and she only knew life on a chain in the yard. So it is kinda hard work to get her house broken, when she has never been inside before. Not complaining, just pointing out the facts. She was not socialised in any way, no structure in her life. She was on her chain at a little dog house, with a bucket of water and a bucket of food next to her, summer and winter.
So yeah, she didn't mind pooping where she sleeps, and that is why it is difficult. Normally a dog will not poop or pee where it sleeps.
A crate is very expensive and right now we don't have that money left over, but you are right, it would be the best way to deal with this.
We read up on the poop problem, and we found two possibilities. 1. Your crate version. 2. Having her supervised all the time, and always in the same room, so she can't go somewhere in the house and do it when noone is watching, and at the tiniest sign of her needing the toilet, you grab the leash and go outside.
For version 2 we have a problem. We are working at home, but we are working on the clock. So it is kinda difficult to just get up and go outside every hour in this situation. So in our coretime, we have her outside (and she poops at the time). After I am done working, I take her on a long walk to drain the energy and after the walk I stand at her pee/poo corner until she does it.

Overall I don't really like working with treats, because I don't want her to do stuff for the treat. I would like her to do stuff because she is supposed to do it, because we are all gonna be happy and praise her when she does it (whatever "it" is).
She is not a big eater anyway, but she loves to be cuddled and pet and so on. So I would like to do that as a reward.

She starts getting "sit", I pet her when she does it.
I tried come yesterday and hurt myself in the process because she ran on a 10 meter rope which got messed up, tangled around my foot while she ran, tangled and cut in my hand at the same time. So gonna have another approach today after the walk. Thicker, shorter rope.... will se what happens, eh. If not, can read up on it and see how others do it.

"Freedom is the freedom to say that 2+2=4" - George Orwell (in 1984)
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25-09-2012, 06:21 AM
RE: Do you have pets?
Ah, ok. Makes more sense now. And I can relate. Drago, the police dog, spent 3 years in a small concrete kennel before I got him. He only ever got out to work. So when he saw a person, he always thought it was either food or work. Relaxing with someone was alien to him. And boy is he exuberant! He was a wild man when he came. Perpetual motion. So it's a little of the same.

Look for a used crate on craig's list or local paper etc., or even place an ad looking for one. It's not expensive that way. It's a life saver for both you and the dog in that situation. Everyone can relax. Just put him in there during "core time". The yard sounds like it just reinforces some old notions he has and is not a good idea for a good while, until he is totally used to his new routine.

My bet is that he will always find a way to escape from view and poop. And the more often it happens, the more often it will happen. It needs to be cut out totally. The crate is the only sure fire way to do it. And after initial resistance of varying degrees, every dog I ever met actually loves the crate, long as you never use it for punishment and provide chewing entertainment in there. It becomes his "safe zone" where he can just relax totally. His place, all his.

This dog will be a bit of trouble to integrate, but you will be really happy with him once he gets it. He will live for doing things right once he understands that he can actually anticipate and hence control your behavior. It helps to speed this up if you make sure you have him do something very simple several times a day and praise a lot - whatever he knows well like "sit". Repeat the simple, fool proof things after any correction, too. He needs to know he could be "in control" of what happens to him. Training works best when it goes both ways - while you are actually gaining control of the dog's behavior, he thinks he is getting control of yours. There are things he can do to make you love him up, he just has to figure out what they are.

To help him figure that out, follow a correction with praise when the unwanted behavior has stopped. Immediately. It may seem irrational to onlookers if you say "no" and a few seconds later praise him, but to him it helps define the good and the bad. Jumping up is no, sitting is praise. If they happen one right after the other, so does your reaction. Even if you catch him in the process of pooping - yell no loud and firm, but the second he stops pooping, praise and run outside with him. It defines the issue for him very clearly that way.

Teaching him to ask to go out - you have to catch him accidentally being near the door. When you see him there, immediately ask if he wants to go out in an exciting voice and run out with him. If he makes the slightest noise during this, reward lavishly. With any luck he will test his conclusion again soon and if you react the same, he will have found control over a huge part of his life.... and your life just got a lot easier.

Rewards - hugs are just fine. Whatever works is fine. I use just praise and physical touch most of the time too. I do use treats when we learn new commands, to set that time apart. He instantly realizes that he is supposed to figure out something new when treats materialize and gets very attentive. But different people will do different things to reward, and as long as the dog enjoys the rewards all is well. People like the clicker because it allows simple and instant rewards. Whatever works. It doesn't matter what is used to give him pleasure and pride.

Looks like you have a bit of work cut out for you with this dog, but you both will love the results, she will delight in being able to use her behavior to control yours. Her life will make sense for once and you will have a very eager to please dog. If you hang in there in the beginning, it will be well worth it.

Just do yourself a favor and get a crate, whether it's a cage or an airline kennel or whatever. You can even make one out of thick wire for cheap. You just need the wire, wire cutter, cage clips and cage clip applicator, all not very expensive. And airline kennels show up used for sale all the time. Just put soft bedding in and it's good to go.

Good luck, give her a big hug for me. Smile

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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25-09-2012, 06:44 AM (This post was last modified: 25-09-2012 06:48 AM by Dom.)
RE: Do you have pets?
Oh, and sit is one where a treat speeds things up considerably. You really don't want to touch her (as in press her butt down) when teaching a command. It confuses things, the touch is a powerful step between the A(command) and the B (sitting). Initially she will then learn to igore the command and wait for the pressure on her butt to sit. With a treat in your hand, you can move the hand with the treat slowly up over her head towards her back and when she tries to follow it with her eyes, she will naturally sit. Soon as her butt touches the floor, say "sit" and she gets the treat. Now you have the "sit" coinciding with the action and the reward, nothing in between. Lesson learned. Repeat a couple of times then, and a few times during the day. Now she will respond to both things, the word sit or the hand above her head, or just the hand held up.... you choose, but the word is best for distance control.

Don't get too stuck on what a reward should be, I know, all the trainers have notions about that. It really doesn't matter though, long as she likes it, and you can vary it, it does not have to be consistent like a lot of other things. With time a lot of the rewards fall by the wayside anyway, just a happy life that lets her be in control of what happens to her will be the ultimate reward, and she will know it.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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25-09-2012, 06:54 AM
RE: Do you have pets?
I know nothing about dogs, but I’m learning!
Jax finally convinced me and we got a SPCA “special blend” Huntaway/Staffy/Labrador/etc eating machine that’s all legs and tongue.
Went from 6kg to 16kg in 6 weeks, now 4 ½ months old and he’s going to be huge!
We have a large lawn and a massive off leash park not far from home where he runs about and plays.
It’s like having a two year old again…
Not that I had my two year old on a leash…
Shock collar worked well on her though…
But I wouldn’t do that to a dog.

The cats are not amused.

A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything. Friedrich Nietzsche
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25-09-2012, 07:03 AM
RE: Do you have pets?
(25-09-2012 06:54 AM)Karl Wrote:  I know nothing about dogs, but I’m learning!
Jax finally convinced me and we got a SPCA “special blend” Huntaway/Staffy/Labrador/etc eating machine that’s all legs and tongue.
Went from 6kg to 16kg in 6 weeks, now 4 ½ months old and he’s going to be huge!
We have a large lawn and a massive off leash park not far from home where he runs about and plays.
It’s like having a two year old again…
Not that I had my two year old on a leash…
Shock collar worked well on her though…
But I wouldn’t do that to a dog.

The cats are not amused.


I always have dogs and cats, and I initially always teach the dog to totally ignore the cat. As in, look at the cat and it's a strong "no". Cats are not there. Looking at a cat is bad.

That lets the cat get confident, and soon enough the cat will approach the dog and they sniff and all is well. It's the cat running that makes the dog go after her, so you indirectly teach the cat not to run from the dog by teaching the dog to totally, at all times, ignore the cat.

I don't leave them alone together for a long time, months. Eventually they become good buddies.

This always works, but you have to be on your toes to ALWAYS correct the dog when it even looks at the cat.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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25-09-2012, 07:23 AM
RE: Do you have pets?
(25-09-2012 07:03 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(25-09-2012 06:54 AM)Karl Wrote:  I know nothing about dogs, but I’m learning!
Jax finally convinced me and we got a SPCA “special blend” Huntaway/Staffy/Labrador/etc eating machine that’s all legs and tongue.
Went from 6kg to 16kg in 6 weeks, now 4 ½ months old and he’s going to be huge!
We have a large lawn and a massive off leash park not far from home where he runs about and plays.
It’s like having a two year old again…
Not that I had my two year old on a leash…
Shock collar worked well on her though…
But I wouldn’t do that to a dog.

The cats are not amused.


I always have dogs and cats, and I initially always teach the dog to totally ignore the cat. As in, look at the cat and it's a strong "no". Cats are not there. Looking at a cat is bad.

That lets the cat get confident, and soon enough the cat will approach the dog and they sniff and all is well. It's the cat running that makes the dog go after her, so you indirectly teach the cat not to run from the dog by teaching the dog to totally, at all times, ignore the cat.

I don't leave them alone together for a long time, months. Eventually they become good buddies.

This always works, but you have to be on your toes to ALWAYS correct the dog when it even looks at the cat.

Not too much of an issue, one is quite friendly with him, one is a right bitch and gets stroppy just thinking about him, and the third is the fucking fun police.
He’s good with them, but they (well two of them) make his life kinda hard.

He made the mistake of chasing Kwon once, it didn’t end well.
Tangling with Kwon never ends well; he’s a furry chainsaw on meth.
Desmo (dog) fits in well with my kinda view of fun, he’ll find Kwon (fun police/fluff grenade) bark at him and then bolt and hide behind us for protection.

Sometimes he’s too slow…

A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything. Friedrich Nietzsche
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25-09-2012, 08:44 AM
RE: Do you have pets?
(25-09-2012 07:23 AM)Karl Wrote:  
(25-09-2012 07:03 AM)Dom Wrote:  I always have dogs and cats, and I initially always teach the dog to totally ignore the cat. As in, look at the cat and it's a strong "no". Cats are not there. Looking at a cat is bad.

That lets the cat get confident, and soon enough the cat will approach the dog and they sniff and all is well. It's the cat running that makes the dog go after her, so you indirectly teach the cat not to run from the dog by teaching the dog to totally, at all times, ignore the cat.

I don't leave them alone together for a long time, months. Eventually they become good buddies.

This always works, but you have to be on your toes to ALWAYS correct the dog when it even looks at the cat.

Not too much of an issue, one is quite friendly with him, one is a right bitch and gets stroppy just thinking about him, and the third is the fucking fun police.
He’s good with them, but they (well two of them) make his life kinda hard.

He made the mistake of chasing Kwon once, it didn’t end well.
Tangling with Kwon never ends well; he’s a furry chainsaw on meth.
Desmo (dog) fits in well with my kinda view of fun, he’ll find Kwon (fun police/fluff grenade) bark at him and then bolt and hide behind us for protection.

Sometimes he’s too slow…

LOL! Keep an eye on it though.... one or the other may take the game a step too far.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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25-09-2012, 09:38 AM
RE: Do you have pets?
One good thing about having a pet monster is checking out suspicious sounds in the yard. I go out there, the oil man takes one look at George, he's like "I'll just drop the bill in this mailbox way the fuck over here. C- ya." Big Grin

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