Do you like feminism?
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04-05-2016, 04:55 PM
RE: Do you like feminism?
(04-05-2016 03:19 PM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  
(04-05-2016 10:36 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  I don't think it's obvious or... well I guess it's understandable as I understand how and why people do it. Though I don't find it sensible.

Well the gender bias there is met by the historical and never ceasing element of the movement. When will it not be historical..?

Idk, I also would like atheist to be a historical term not relevant to a modern human society one time too.

I also don't like humanism used in attempts to say that's equal, that's also human based maybe in our time sentient aliens and ai will be equal right demanding. I'd hope to not settle on just historical now shift vs past one while ignoring the future. Some definitions do define egalitarian as a human/people concept which I'd limited in scope as I see it to. Even though it's root is equal, the usage in that way saddens me as nearsighted.

I too would like to see atheist become an irrelevant term. But they're not really the same.
Admitting there is a gender bias in the word is a good start. I suggest feminist, when presented with the bias, abandon the word. Why the refusal? It seems perfectly consistent with the claim "feminism is about equality."

If you're looking for anything you call a "movement" that is pure or hypocrisy free it's not gonna be there. The concept of any group growing beyond a handful is going to cause that, about anything.

My point was that egalitarianism isn't something defined or acted upon all inclusive manners either.

I suggest atheist use brights or free thinkers... no wait I don't because there's no relevance or value to be had there and the point of a label or term is next to meaningless other than what someone interprets it as.

Even if it changed to egalitarian it doesn't change the topic or points. There still will be some woman online saying if you're gay you don't like women or men need consent education ... just under the banner of egalitarianism. Nothing changes from the labels. And at all times are there people speaking out against fringe or excessively leaping arguers. There's no shift to highlighting the echos of communication chambers across the world.

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04-05-2016, 04:57 PM
RE: Do you like feminism?
(04-05-2016 04:39 PM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  
(04-05-2016 04:13 PM)Dom Wrote:  Gender equalitarian is a bit of a mouthful.... Tongue

The word feminist has stood for equal rights for a century. A small group of misandrists should not be able to discredit it.
A mouthful for sure. But humanist is as inclusive as firefighter. If that ain't good enough there are plenty of imaginative people who could come up with something.
What ought to be and what is aren't always the same thing. Those who truly support equality should speak against the hate mongers (what ought to be) but so many are too concerned with stubbornly holding on to a word that's obviously antiquated (what is).

I'm hoping to bring attention to that. I have a hard time trusting a movement that commits the same infractions it protests against. It reminds me too much of religion. I can't see past the hypocracy.

That's just it, irks me to no end. Feminism is what it has always been, there are millions of us all over the world. Misandrists have no place in feminism, they are a self proclaimed fringe group that represents feminism as much as Isis represents Islam.

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04-05-2016, 05:18 PM
RE: Do you like feminism?
(04-05-2016 04:57 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(04-05-2016 04:39 PM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  A mouthful for sure. But humanist is as inclusive as firefighter. If that ain't good enough there are plenty of imaginative people who could come up with something.
What ought to be and what is aren't always the same thing. Those who truly support equality should speak against the hate mongers (what ought to be) but so many are too concerned with stubbornly holding on to a word that's obviously antiquated (what is).

I'm hoping to bring attention to that. I have a hard time trusting a movement that commits the same infractions it protests against. It reminds me too much of religion. I can't see past the hypocracy.

That's just it, irks me to no end. Feminism is what it has always been, there are millions of us all over the world. Misandrists have no place in feminism, they are a self proclaimed fringe group that represents feminism as much as Isis represents Islam.

Yet you refuse to abandon a gender biased term. Why? Because feminism is what it's always been? That's not a convincing argument.
Policemen are what they have always been. Law enforcement. Women rightfully achieved their freedom to enter law enforcement. It seems feminist had a problem with the word "police man."
Women can be policemen too! So it's police officer please. Ok. Im fine with that.
But as it's often said, "Men can be feminists too!"

The hypocracy is too obvious to ignore.
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04-05-2016, 05:32 PM (This post was last modified: 04-05-2016 05:41 PM by Dom.)
RE: Do you like feminism?
(04-05-2016 05:18 PM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  
(04-05-2016 04:57 PM)Dom Wrote:  That's just it, irks me to no end. Feminism is what it has always been, there are millions of us all over the world. Misandrists have no place in feminism, they are a self proclaimed fringe group that represents feminism as much as Isis represents Islam.

Yet you refuse to abandon a gender biased term. Why? Because feminism is what it's always been? That's not a convincing argument.
Policemen are what they have always been. Law enforcement. Women rightfully achieved their freedom to enter law enforcement. It seems feminist had a problem with the word "police man."
Women can be policemen too! So it's police officer please. Ok. Im fine with that.
But as it's often said, "Men can be feminists too!"

The hypocracy is too obvious to ignore.

There are tons of male feminists, some in this thread.

When I first looked for a job, I found that as female all I could be is secretary or nurse. Well, these were the skilled, best paying jobs. I spent the better part of 50 years helping to remedy that, and I, as feminist, will be done when we have equal pay for equal work. Until that time I identify as feminist.

Let the misandrists fool around with the misogynists, I don't care. I am a feminist and I ain't done yet.

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04-05-2016, 05:47 PM
RE: Do you like feminism?
(03-05-2016 03:42 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  A. I never said the rule is false. I'm just saying that the exceptions seem to be numerous enough for the rules to not count as an argument for what "most women" and "most men" act like and why.

To bad they aren't. It is like when I say men a stronger than woman and they bring up female body builders or something like that. How many women are body builders? How man do something like that? Very little. So when I say men are stronger than women, with a few exceptions, that means the rule is men are stronger with a few exceptions. The exceptions are too small to count. Men are competetive, women are better communicators, these have been seen, and the brain attributes to these differences. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscien...ifferences

(03-05-2016 03:42 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  B. Again, one more meaningless, baseless generalization.
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) I will get to this later.


(03-05-2016 03:42 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  Yeah... ok? The only actual study I see here that is not an anecdote or a personal opinion is the one that says that many women in their 30s were single 10 years ago. So? How does that prove that rich women don't need men?

Like how you said I did this to prove rich women don't need men when I claimed that rich women struggle to find men. And I sourced them to show

A. The struggle for sucessful women to find a mate

B. To show what mattered most to men and women on the list. Men are much more drawn to looks than woman are.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-5-JeCa...MzblE/edit

and women when listing the things they like the most tend to have a vibe of providing protection, comfort, or both.

http://www.medicaldaily.com/what-type-me...nce-299252


(03-05-2016 03:42 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  Perhaps you have seen it but did not notice. After all, as a guy, you'll probably find average girls attractive but you won't find average guys attractive.

No I meant ugly, not average. Most people find "average" girls attractive, so no I meant ugly, one no man or lesbian would be attracted too.

(03-05-2016 03:42 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  Hate to be the one to have to break it to you, but no, life on TV is not real life.

Well it depends. If you mean shows, sure. But if you mean things like media coverage that you see on T.V. that is an entirely different story.

(03-05-2016 03:42 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  If you take into account all those "minorities", your argument is rendered useless.

No it isn't. They are minorities for a reason. A very small one. That is like me saying, most of these M&M's are poisonous. Then you saying well here it shows some are not poisonous, there for you saying there are poisonous is useless. No, that means the majority of the M&M's are poisonous don't stick your hand in it. And here it is no, the majority of men and women have a certain set of behaviors that applies to the differences between them in biology.

Also keep in mind that a few decades ago women were not supposed to wear pants, or that in some cultures men wear makeup or skirts.


(03-05-2016 03:42 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  I never claimed otherwise. My argument still stands.

My point was not to refute your argument, but to explain why they feel that way. All the can do is man up. There is no other solution.


(03-05-2016 03:42 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  If what you say is true, then weak, disabled, poor, mean, cold, men with no skills in anything (=incapable of offering protection and comfort) would never find a wife. Are you trying to tell me that all women who are in a relationship right now feel protected and comfortable or expect to be so by their boyfriends/husbands?

I am. Did you read point C? Unless a woman is with a man with no way to protect her, not even the will to let me self die for her(which by the way can even be used by a couple with nothing at all) Then yes. And for comfort same thing(A man with nothing can provide comfort to a woman like loyalty or being tall if he so happens to be).


(03-05-2016 03:42 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  See above. I'm not trying to refute the rule.

So why continue? You seem to have a problem with it being the rule. Sorry but biology.

(03-05-2016 03:42 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  It's a minority, but not an insignificant one, and that is the point I'm trying to make.

But it is not significant either.

(01-05-2016 05:10 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  Does all research know anything for certainty? We just go off the factors and patterns, but there is a reason this can be falsified.

Sure, but not all studies are presented by saying "well, this whole study might be totally wrong, but yeah".

(01-05-2016 05:10 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  Jesus, I never said that. But again, let me remind you:

You brought up that your brother said he meet men with homosexual experiences, you used that as an example. I am saying this is not the case. If this was not your point, why did you bring that up?



(03-05-2016 03:42 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  That was my reply to this ^
Why didn't Ancient Greeks expect anyone to "come out as gay"? Why weren't homosexuals shunned?

Well it wasn't shunned sure, but for the coming out part, they did with their position. It was usually the higher ups were considered homosexuals. So in turn they did come out as gay, just not in the saying it way.


(03-05-2016 03:42 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  Sexuality is a continuum. It's not like you either are or are not a homosexual. If anything, the people who are 100% straight must be the minority here.

So would people who are 100% homosexual too then. And for the most part, yes you either are or you aren't. There are differences between males when comparing homosexuals to heterosexuals. Its the reason why gay conversion therapy doesn't work.

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04-05-2016, 05:50 PM
RE: Do you like feminism?
(04-05-2016 05:32 PM)Dom Wrote:  There are tons of male feminists, some in this thread.

Plenty of blacks are neo nazis, doesn't make it nazism for them.

Not saying feminism is as bad, but the point is someone being an identity not for them doesn't make it all of a sudden for somebody who doesn't identify.

(04-05-2016 05:32 PM)Dom Wrote:  r done when we have equal pay for equal work. Until that time I identify as feminist.

You do, it is the gender pay act. The pay gap is a myth.

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04-05-2016, 05:59 PM
RE: Do you like feminism?
(04-05-2016 05:50 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  
(04-05-2016 05:32 PM)Dom Wrote:  There are tons of male feminists, some in this thread.

Plenty of blacks are neo nazis, doesn't make it nazism for them.

Not saying feminism is as bad, but the point is someone being an identity not for them doesn't make it all of a sudden for somebody who doesn't identify.

(04-05-2016 05:32 PM)Dom Wrote:  r done when we have equal pay for equal work. Until that time I identify as feminist.

You do, it is the gender pay act. The pay gap is a myth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_pay...ted_States

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04-05-2016, 06:04 PM
RE: Do you like feminism?
(04-05-2016 05:59 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(04-05-2016 05:50 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  Plenty of blacks are neo nazis, doesn't make it nazism for them.

Not saying feminism is as bad, but the point is someone being an identity not for them doesn't make it all of a sudden for somebody who doesn't identify.


You do, it is the gender pay act. The pay gap is a myth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_pay...ted_States

Quote:The gender pay gap in the United States is the ratio of female to male median yearly earnings among full-time, year-round (FTYR) workers.

This is the first sentence. Earnings is different from pay. Hell it goes over earnings. So if a man and a woman work the same they will get payed the same.

When you take into account all the job choices that men and women make, you get the pay gap. There are a mired of factors, discrimination, not being one of them.

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04-05-2016, 06:11 PM
RE: Do you like feminism?
(04-05-2016 06:04 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  
(04-05-2016 05:59 PM)Dom Wrote:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_pay...ted_States

Quote:The gender pay gap in the United States is the ratio of female to male median yearly earnings among full-time, year-round (FTYR) workers.

This is the first sentence. Earnings is different from pay. Hell it goes over earnings. So if a man and a woman work the same they will get payed the same.

When you take into account all the job choices that men and women make, you get the pay gap. There are a mired of factors, discrimination, not being one of them.
There is different treatment in growth based on the statuses. Women with children are, not as a general rule of their wants, viewed as needing more time off and given less jobs or pay of expected full time work while men, even vs men here, as men with children are promoted or given raises more. The view of what roles are anticipated to be do alter actual people's realities negatively.

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04-05-2016, 06:16 PM
RE: Do you like feminism?
(04-05-2016 06:11 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  There is different treatment in growth based on the statuses. Women with children are, not as a general rule of their wants, viewed as needing more time off and given less jobs or pay of expected full time work while men, even vs men here, as men with children are promoted or given raises more.

More often is because this is what happens. Interestingly women earn more than men in their 20's

http://www.theguardian.com/money/2015/au...tudy-finds

However children do get in the way. This is a example of wanting to have your cake and eat it too. But this ain't just something that popped out of thin air. Like all things, there is a social and biological reason for this.

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