Do you like feminism?
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04-05-2016, 06:19 PM
RE: Do you like feminism?
(04-05-2016 06:16 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  
(04-05-2016 06:11 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  There is different treatment in growth based on the statuses. Women with children are, not as a general rule of their wants, viewed as needing more time off and given less jobs or pay of expected full time work while men, even vs men here, as men with children are promoted or given raises more.

More often is because this is what happens. Interestingly women earn more than men in their 20's

http://www.theguardian.com/money/2015/au...tudy-finds

However children do get in the way. This is a example of wanting to have your cake and eat it too. But this ain't just something that popped out of thin air. Like all things, there is a social and biological reason for this.
Yes and education in society can do more to not just encourage stereotypical career roles

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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04-05-2016, 07:51 PM
RE: Do you like feminism?
(04-05-2016 06:19 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(04-05-2016 06:16 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  More often is because this is what happens. Interestingly women earn more than men in their 20's

http://www.theguardian.com/money/2015/au...tudy-finds

However children do get in the way. This is a example of wanting to have your cake and eat it too. But this ain't just something that popped out of thin air. Like all things, there is a social and biological reason for this.
Yes and education in society can do more to not just encourage stereotypical career roles

Well even if we don't it won't work, ask sweden.

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04-05-2016, 08:01 PM
RE: Do you like feminism?
(04-05-2016 07:51 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  
(04-05-2016 06:19 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Yes and education in society can do more to not just encourage stereotypical career roles

Well even if we don't it won't work, ask sweden.

It is working. It has come a long way in the 50 years I have observed. Once men become equally involved in child rearing (and some laws still need to change for that to happen) things will improve and there should be equal opportunity.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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04-05-2016, 08:33 PM
RE: Do you like feminism?
(04-05-2016 08:01 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(04-05-2016 07:51 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  Well even if we don't it won't work, ask sweden.

It is working. It has come a long way in the 50 years I have observed. Once men become equally involved in child rearing (and some laws still need to change for that to happen) things will improve and there should be equal opportunity.

Well no. They do things like for example try to make girls play with boys toys and girls play with boys toys. It failed. The equality in child raising(i.e quotas to make men take off from work to raise children) Will fail. Every country that has tried to make equality of outcome instead of opportunity has failed.

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04-05-2016, 10:16 PM
RE: Do you like feminism?
(04-05-2016 06:11 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(04-05-2016 06:04 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  This is the first sentence. Earnings is different from pay. Hell it goes over earnings. So if a man and a woman work the same they will get payed the same.

When you take into account all the job choices that men and women make, you get the pay gap. There are a mired of factors, discrimination, not being one of them.
There is different treatment in growth based on the statuses. Women with children are, not as a general rule of their wants, viewed as needing more time off and given less jobs or pay of expected full time work while men, even vs men here, as men with children are promoted or given raises more. The view of what roles are anticipated to be do alter actual people's realities negatively.

Why must I be Ladd? via da Tapatalk

When children enter the mix, men on average will work longer hours and work harder, and woman will take more time off work. They do this by choice as they see that as the best way to support the families. Why are the personal choices of people ignored by feminists in cases like this?

It must be patriarchy or gender roles or something other than a consequence of choice. This need to blame some external factor is something I have never understood.

Woman make up over 60% of college students in the US, but their choices in life affect their earnings. They are not paid less simply because vagina.

Evolution does not stop at the neck, it influences our behavior in many subtle ways, from risk aversion patterns to preferred forms of entertainment and career choices.

The requirement of evidence to back your claim does not disappear because it hurts your feelings, reality does not care about your feefees.
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05-05-2016, 12:08 AM
RE: Do you like feminism?
(04-05-2016 05:59 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(04-05-2016 05:50 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  Plenty of blacks are neo nazis, doesn't make it nazism for them.

Not saying feminism is as bad, but the point is someone being an identity not for them doesn't make it all of a sudden for somebody who doesn't identify.


You do, it is the gender pay act. The pay gap is a myth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_pay...ted_States

Lol. "If you compare the sum total of all mens earning to the sum total of all womens earning, mens sum is larger!! Therefore men get paid more for the same work!!"

Well, no.. Actually that doesn't follow - at all.

Lol you do realise that the only way to get gender parity on total earnings is if every job were paid the exact same, right? When you point to the difference in total earnings and say "This number should be the same for both sexes!!" you're almost literally saying that every job in the country should pay the same - 'cause that's the only way it's gonna happen. As long as there's ever even 1 more woman or man doing something that creates a different income, there will be a 'wage gap' (It is actually an 'earnings gap.')
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05-05-2016, 03:19 AM (This post was last modified: 05-05-2016 05:59 AM by ClydeLee.)
RE: Do you like feminism?
(04-05-2016 07:51 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  
(04-05-2016 06:19 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Yes and education in society can do more to not just encourage stereotypical career roles

Well even if we don't it won't work, ask sweden.
I don't get what you mean "work" there's no failure or "making" in benefit of wide option opening. Education isn't possible to be limited to one region when it's a cultural and biological element nor does forcing at anyway equate to that.

You act like you or you think others seek some magical perfection in some metaphysical lock of ideal unity.

If you want all conservation to devolve into fake notions of total all or nothing go ahead. I don't care for bickering at false idols of absolutisms. Just because you may not have freewill doesn't even mean those coming after you aren't effected by efforts of cultural shifting.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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05-05-2016, 07:22 AM
RE: Do you like feminism?
(04-05-2016 08:33 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  
(04-05-2016 08:01 PM)Dom Wrote:  It is working. It has come a long way in the 50 years I have observed. Once men become equally involved in child rearing (and some laws still need to change for that to happen) things will improve and there should be equal opportunity.

Well no. They do things like for example try to make girls play with boys toys and girls play with boys toys. It failed. The equality in child raising(i.e quotas to make men take off from work to raise children) Will fail. Every country that has tried to make equality of outcome instead of opportunity has failed.

Haha, yes, there is no pill that will make people wake up tomorrow and it all will be equal. Societal evolution is slow, and the gender equality issue has so far taken over 100 years to be where it stands now. All one can do is to keep raising awareness.

Things have changed immensely for women, they can vote, they can have bank accounts, they can get a good education, technology has made it possible to keep a household running without spending all your days on your knees. It's not only people's attitudes that had to change, it is also the requirements for survival.

It has changed things for men a lot too - men can openly show love for their children, they can be care givers, they don't carry the sole responsibility for housing and feeding large families, they can have emotions and show them...

I guess you had to have been there to realize the overwhelming progress that was made. Both men and women are much more free to choose their life styles.

Compared to what has been achieved already, we are now in the end phases of change needed to make things truly equal.

Equality doesn't mean being androgynous, it means that everyone has all the choices.

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05-05-2016, 07:40 AM
RE: Do you like feminism?
(05-05-2016 07:22 AM)Dom Wrote:  Haha, yes, there is no pill that will make people wake up tomorrow and it all will be equal. Societal evolution is slow, and the gender equality issue has so far taken over 100 years to be where it stands now. All one can do is to keep raising awareness.

But biological evolution doesn't. This is the problem. Men aren't going to go in droves to be the home maker unless women only breed with men that can do that. Until then it won't happen often. To add places like america do have gender equality, most women's issues today affect both genders, difference is women are just better at communicating than men.

(05-05-2016 07:22 AM)Dom Wrote:  men can openly show love for their children,

They always could, it is just men do it differently. See the dad playing football with his kid? He is showing love. See that dad looking out for his kids safety? That is showing love. Men and women even share feelings differently .

(05-05-2016 07:22 AM)Dom Wrote:  they can be care givers

So back then men who worked for nothing? Was it for drug money? Because last time I checked they worked to care for their kids.

(05-05-2016 07:22 AM)Dom Wrote:  they can have emotions and show them...

Well men could always do that, even cry. But this comes down to when it is done. A man crying for losing a loved one, no one cares. A man crying because he was punched, is funny. So men where always showing and having emotions, it is just that most men tend not to do things like cry in certain situations.

(05-05-2016 07:22 AM)Dom Wrote:  Compared to what has been achieved already, we are now in the end phases of change needed to make things truly equal.

Sorry bro it has ended, unless you are talking about outcome instead of opportunity.

(05-05-2016 07:22 AM)Dom Wrote:  Equality doesn't mean being androgynous, it means that everyone has all the choices.

Thanks for your efforts for woman's rights back in the day. Thanks to people like you we have achieved gender equality in the united states.

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05-05-2016, 08:30 AM
RE: Do you like feminism?
(04-05-2016 04:55 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(04-05-2016 03:19 PM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  I too would like to see atheist become an irrelevant term. But they're not really the same.
Admitting there is a gender bias in the word is a good start. I suggest feminist, when presented with the bias, abandon the word. Why the refusal? It seems perfectly consistent with the claim "feminism is about equality."

If you're looking for anything you call a "movement" that is pure or hypocrisy free it's not gonna be there. The concept of any group growing beyond a handful is going to cause that, about anything.

My point was that egalitarianism isn't something defined or acted upon all inclusive manners either.

I suggest atheist use brights or free thinkers... no wait I don't because there's no relevance or value to be had there and the point of a label or term is next to meaningless other than what someone interprets it as.

Even if it changed to egalitarian it doesn't change the topic or points. There still will be some woman online saying if you're gay you don't like women or men need consent education ... just under the banner of egalitarianism. Nothing changes from the labels. And at all times are there people speaking out against fringe or excessively leaping arguers. There's no shift to highlighting the echos of communication chambers across the world.

Ok. Fine. We can have an srguement about whether feminism is being hijacked and what the impact might be and might even be convinced to see it your way. My ultimate point is that there is hypocracy right in the name. Feminists demanded that all gender bias terms be abandoned. That's blatant hypocracy. That's not just a little hypocracy within the movement. If this cannot be changed or even expected then I expect "fireman" to be considered politically correct.
I have no issues with anyone who demands freedom and equality but I won't be told that the term "feminism" is acceptable while "fireman" is not.

It blows my mind that people refuse to see this.
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