Do you like feminism?
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05-05-2016, 02:16 PM
RE: Do you like feminism?
(05-05-2016 09:12 AM)Dom Wrote:  Opportunity will not be equal until the child rearing and care taking issue has been resolved. Laws need to change and all burden connected with responsibility for children needs to be equal. Only then will there be equal opportunity for everyone.

How do you resolve it? How do you encourage men to want to be stay at home dads? For the most part you can't. This is a none issue. If you are a woman, and you want to have your life focused on your career don't have kids. The chance of you finding a man who will stay at home is slim, and you can't have your cake and eat it too.

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05-05-2016, 02:19 PM
RE: Do you like feminism?
(05-05-2016 02:16 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  
(05-05-2016 09:12 AM)Dom Wrote:  Opportunity will not be equal until the child rearing and care taking issue has been resolved. Laws need to change and all burden connected with responsibility for children needs to be equal. Only then will there be equal opportunity for everyone.

How do you resolve it? How do you encourage men to want to be stay at home dads? For the most part you can't. This is a none issue. If you are a woman, and you want to have your life focused on your career don't have kids. The chance of you finding a man who will stay at home is slim, and you can't have your cake and eat it too.

You know not of what you speak. If my wife worked for Goldman Sachs I would be perfectly happy to stay at home and hire a nanny for the messy bits. Hell I might even think about running for Senate. Hell, why not President.

#sigh
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05-05-2016, 02:22 PM
RE: Do you like feminism?
(05-05-2016 02:19 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(05-05-2016 02:16 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  How do you resolve it? How do you encourage men to want to be stay at home dads? For the most part you can't. This is a none issue. If you are a woman, and you want to have your life focused on your career don't have kids. The chance of you finding a man who will stay at home is slim, and you can't have your cake and eat it too.

You know not of what you speak. If my wife worked for Goldman Sachs I would be perfectly happy to stay at home and hire a nanny for the messy parts. Hell I might even think about running for Senate. Hell, why not President.

You are one person, not many. There is a reason for why men don't usually want to be stay at home dads, you can thank hormones and evolution.

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05-05-2016, 02:27 PM
RE: Do you like feminism?
(05-05-2016 02:22 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  
(05-05-2016 02:19 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  You know not of what you speak. If my wife worked for Goldman Sachs I would be perfectly happy to stay at home and hire a nanny for the messy parts. Hell I might even think about running for Senate. Hell, why not President.

You are one person, not many. There is a reason for why men don't usually want to be stay at home dads, you can thank hormones and evolution.

Well my testosterone is 1/2 of ManlyGirl's but that's why I have this.
[Image: andro.jpg]

Testosterone doesn't make me want to work, it makes me want to fuck. (Unless it feels too much like work.)

#sigh
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05-05-2016, 02:40 PM
RE: Do you like feminism?
(05-05-2016 02:27 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(05-05-2016 02:22 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  You are one person, not many. There is a reason for why men don't usually want to be stay at home dads, you can thank hormones and evolution.

Well my testosterone is 1/2 of ManlyGirl's but that's why I have this.
[Image: andro.jpg]

Testosterone doesn't make me want to work, it makes me want to fuck. (Unless it feels too much like work.)

Well wanting to fuck is one side effect there are many more. Plus again there are more hormones in the body that also effect male behavior.

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05-05-2016, 03:00 PM (This post was last modified: 05-05-2016 03:06 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Do you like feminism?
(05-05-2016 02:40 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  
(05-05-2016 02:27 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Well my testosterone is 1/2 of ManlyGirl's but that's why I have this.
[Image: andro.jpg]

Testosterone doesn't make me want to work, it makes me want to fuck. (Unless it feels too much like work.)

Well wanting to fuck is one side effect there are many more.

You do realize Zekester that you are coming perilously close to lecturing someone who has been on testosterone replacement therapy for over a decade on the side effects of testosterone, yes?

(05-05-2016 02:40 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  Plus again there are more hormones in the body that also effect male behavior.

Sure. The main one is 5α-dihydrotestosterone. Estrogen too. I got a hormone metabolism chart around here. Gimme a sec.... Here it is.

[Image: steroid.jpg]
Curiously, all of the sex hormones begin with cholesterol going to pregnenolone. Might want to consider how far to drop cholesterol levels.

#sigh
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05-05-2016, 03:12 PM
RE: Do you like feminism?
(28-04-2016 01:30 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Feminists are the opposite of sexists.

If you think sexism is bullshit, congrats, you're a feminist (in addition to whatever other monikers or hats you'd like to wear, like egalitarian).

Uh no.

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Life is a flash of light between two eternities of darkness.
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05-05-2016, 04:22 PM
RE: Do you like feminism?
(05-05-2016 12:27 PM)Dom Wrote:  Fireman, policeman, I couldn't care less about semantics. There are actual real issues still to be solved.

Once that is done, we can retire feminism and whoever wants to worry themselves about semantics can do so without me.

With social change it's win some, lose some. With gay pride we won. With cannabis we are on a winning streak. With feminism I find myself explaining the same thing to this generation that I had to explain to a generation born 80+ years ago. All people can now think about when they hear feminism is misandrists. It's not about that. It's about equality. And creating equal opportunity for women happens to also solve the divorce/child rearing issues men's groups complain about.

It's most disheartening that I find myself still explaining the same shit....

The reason that most often feminism is associated with misandry is that the action of the many many high profile feminists are misandrist. They are not the fringe, moderates like Ms Hoff-Summers are the fringe.

When the publications like The Guardian and The Washington post run articles about how air-conditioning is sexist towards woman, when the response from feminist and mainstream publications in the wake of the New Years attacks in Cologne and other places, is to vilify ALL men as potential rapists who should do more then yes Feminism = Misandry.

When the usual feminist response to an argument or criticism is to shout Misogyny! and Sexism!, instead of addressing the actual argument feminism = misandry.

Feminism has done good, but it has also done massive harm, for instance the proliferation of the statistic that US campuses have higher rates of rape and sexual assault than Somalia.

That it lead to the introduction and adoption of the Duluth Model of domestic violence, where if a man calls and is being abused by his female partner HE gets arrested.

You know the one where the author of it came out and said: "By determining that the need or desire for power was the motivating force behind battering, we created a conceptual framework that, in fact, did not fit the lived experience of many of the men and women we were working with. Eventually, we realized that we were finding what we had already predetermined to find."

I have yet to meet a feminist activist who will admit when their pet religion has caused harm, or just been flat out wrong. Until that day comes, where feminists such as yourself and those in the world admit to the fact that it is not perfect, does not have all the answers and does cause harm, even if unintended, I will have no time or respect for the cult of victimhood it has become and been for the last 30 odd years.

The requirement of evidence to back your claim does not disappear because it hurts your feelings, reality does not care about your feefees.
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05-05-2016, 04:23 PM
RE: Do you like feminism?
(05-05-2016 02:16 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  
(05-05-2016 09:12 AM)Dom Wrote:  Opportunity will not be equal until the child rearing and care taking issue has been resolved. Laws need to change and all burden connected with responsibility for children needs to be equal. Only then will there be equal opportunity for everyone.

How do you resolve it? How do you encourage men to want to be stay at home dads? For the most part you can't. This is a none issue. If you are a woman, and you want to have your life focused on your career don't have kids. The chance of you finding a man who will stay at home is slim, and you can't have your cake and eat it too.

Absolutely wrong in my experience. Both my husband and myself have careers. Both of us have arranged and rearranged our schedules over the years so that we can take care of our kid. Neither of us considers ourself a "stay-at-home" parent (we just call ourselves parents).

I must be in a rather large cake-having/cake-eating bubble, because many of our friends have kids and two parents with careers (like lawyers, doctors, engineers, computer programmers, architects, college professors).

I know a lot of dads who are involved with their kids and with running their households in a much more meaningful way than the dads of a generation or two back. It's sad that that seems so impossible to you. The men I know seem to be happy to be involved in their kids' lives, to be married to women with professional accomplishments in addition to beauty and fertility, and to be less stressed financially because there are two good incomes. It sure was helpful in our household, when my husband got laid off from his systems analyst job and was out of work for a year, that I was making decent money and our bills still got paid.

Plenty of two-job (rather than career) households, too, where the child care duties are shared. It's true that there are couples where the woman works a full-time job and then handles virtually all of the child care. Fuck that, I'm not living that way.
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05-05-2016, 04:49 PM (This post was last modified: 05-05-2016 04:52 PM by epronovost.)
RE: Do you like feminism?
(05-05-2016 02:22 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  
(05-05-2016 02:19 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  You know not of what you speak. If my wife worked for Goldman Sachs I would be perfectly happy to stay at home and hire a nanny for the messy parts. Hell I might even think about running for Senate. Hell, why not President.

You are one person, not many. There is a reason for why men don't usually want to be stay at home dads, you can thank hormones and evolution.

Child care has varied tremendously in time and in culture. The idea of women at home taking care of children while men work is mostly a characteristic of to the post second industrial revolution Western civilisation and those influenced by it. Before that, it was mostly a trait of the urban elite not the common of people. Once upon a time, when absolute poverty was common place, child labor a necessity, school a luxury, taking care of children was a much more equally distributed task. 80% of the population were subsistence farmers who worked, lived and trained their children together each to their own task depending on their age and gender. In some culture farming was a men activity like in the occidental world while it’s a women activity in many part of South East Asia. The list goes on. No two culture have the exact same gender roles. Some are very similar like those of East Asia and the Western world while other are completely opposite on certain aspect. I would recommend taking a class on the history of the family in comparative history or reading the excellent books of Anne Campbell or Ann Belt Walter on the subject.

In some culture, taking care of the children is spread equally between men and women no matter the task or the gender of the child. It's the case for the Aka tribe for example. In other culture men raise and take care of their sons after their first year while women take care of their daughters. In some, men enforce discipline and distribute punishment while mothers nurture and care while in others it's the exact opposite. In some culture there is no such things as a parent as we know it. Children are raised in communal houses by a variety of adults and the elder of their community. Amongst the nobility, it was common to be raised by a mix of nurses and teacher. Today, most urban high middle class family see their children being raised as much by teachers and nurses in schools and kindergarten then by either parents. This is a new phenomenon. That's why so many children make the Freudian slip of calling a teacher mom or dad once.

Is there some genetic variable that can predispose women more than men to devote time and care to their family? Perhaps. In fact, I would be surprised if it wasn't the case. But in no way would a hormone or gene be capable of stimulating the exact behavior or reaction a person has in front of child of his own. There is thousands of radically different ways to care. In fact, even in the same family no two chid is raised in the exact same way. Furthermore, even if it was the case, we have demonstrated the ability of our culture to supress or transform our «natural» behavior. We sometimes refuse to have children despite it being one of the strongest instinct. In fact, the drop in fertility amongst the middle class due to smaller and smaller family units and the fact that almost 30% of all women in those group refuse to have children for various reasons despite having the occasion or even good situation for it illustrate this perfectly. So is our habit to wage war even in situation of small risk and without direct imminent threat. So is our attitude toward suicide or even human rights. Xenophobia, racism, sexism, classism, homophobia, transphobia, ableism are all, also linked to our biological makeup. We are «programmed» for bigotry up to a certain point, yet it has recoiled massively thanks to cultural shifts at various point in history and in some society.

If men don't want to stay home and raise their children its almost completely down to culture and more specifically the way we organise our work and family lives. There isn't one model of family, there isn't one model of work organisation and the way we structure it has much more impact on the way we live and think then our genetic would suggest. We are built to adapt, to use creative thinking and insight and correction. As such one of our greatest advantages was our capacity to revolution our behavior and methods to adapt to a new environment and I see no good reason to not make the necessary steps to build a society in which men and women would spend as much time, money and passion in raising their children no matter their gender. While men collectively might be less present in the lives of their children than women, they are much more present then they used to be. In fact the time spent by men with their children has doubled in 30 years. In about 30 years, at this rythm, they will be pretty much equal to women at that point. This can only bring more justice and good news for men, women and children in the future.

Freedom is servitude to justice and intellectual honesty.
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