Do you like feminism?
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28-04-2016, 01:42 PM
RE: Do you like feminism?
(28-04-2016 01:37 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(28-04-2016 01:32 PM)Dark Wanderer Wrote:  Ah, ok. I think I've heard some people say that they dislike feminists, but they don't strike me as sexists. I'm guessing that there are other nuances associated with it.

Simple, what some people consider to be sexist is not universal, thus not everyone who might consider themselves a feminist have an agreed upon or unified opinion about every subject; likewise with their detractors.

Case in point, Anita Sarkesian thinks Princess Peach and her 'rescue the princess' routine is sexists. A lot of other gamers strongly disagree with her. Ideally she'd be allowed to maker her YouTube videos in peace, but she had to get death threats and get dox'd because of her opinions on video games. This is why we can't have nice things.

I went from thinking feminism is fine to already getting fucking annoyed. Really? Princess Peach? Now I understand.
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28-04-2016, 01:45 PM (This post was last modified: 28-04-2016 01:58 PM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Do you like feminism?
(28-04-2016 01:42 PM)Dark Wanderer Wrote:  
(28-04-2016 01:37 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Simple, what some people consider to be sexist is not universal, thus not everyone who might consider themselves a feminist have an agreed upon or unified opinion about every subject; likewise with their detractors.

Case in point, Anita Sarkesian thinks Princess Peach and her 'rescue the princess' routine is sexists. A lot of other gamers strongly disagree with her. Ideally she'd be allowed to maker her YouTube videos in peace, but she had to get death threats and get dox'd because of her opinions on video games. This is why we can't have nice things.

I went from thinking feminism is fine to already getting fucking annoyed. Really? Princess Peach? Now I understand.

But does that opinion represent ALL feminists? No, because not all of them agree that Peach is a victim or representation of sexism. I self identify as a feminist, and I disagree with her.

There are some really unsavory types that like nothing more than to trot Sarkesian out, tar and feather her and burn her in effigy, and try to use that as some sort of attack against feminism in general instead of the opinions of a specific individual.

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28-04-2016, 01:46 PM
RE: Do you like feminism?
(28-04-2016 01:20 PM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote:  I've been coming around. I had a period where I followed a lot of sargon of akkad, shoe on head, amazing atheist videos. I think that I always had core feminist values, such as gender norms being a social construct. I like how feminists are so pro gay, pro trans, pro race, open minded about gender. The only thing I don't like are the opinions they hold about fat people. Being fat is unhealthy and I don't promote unhealthy eating habits. I'd probably date a feminist, they seem to hold a lot of the same values as I do.

Do I "like" it seems an odd question. When I was around 16 or 17 I read this work. I found it most illuminating. I highly recommend it.

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28-04-2016, 01:50 PM (This post was last modified: 28-04-2016 02:29 PM by skyking.)
RE: Do you like feminism?
(28-04-2016 01:32 PM)Dark Wanderer Wrote:  Ah, ok. I think I've heard some people say that they dislike feminists, but they don't strike me as sexists. I'm guessing that there are other nuances associated with it.

Like all things there is a continuum. At the far end are some really militant feminists, and it becomes easier to point at that group and use the word hate.
Myself, I had a strong mother and a distant alcoholic father. I'd say I'm a pretty strong feminist myself.
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28-04-2016, 01:53 PM
RE: Do you like feminism?
I'm wary of isms in general, but I think all people should have basic human rights and as level a playing field as we can manage. I think women should have the same rights AND RESPONSIBILITIES as men. If that's feminism I guess I'm a feminist. If feminism is something different, like elevating women to where you have to applaud every whim and every decision they make no matter how ruinous, that's not what I think of as equality. Equality means nobody is special, everyone is evaluated by the same criteria, nobody gets a free pass for anything.

I will concede that in most places in the world and most cultures throughout time it's advantageous to be male.
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28-04-2016, 02:38 PM
RE: Do you like feminism?
Feminism is about gender equality. There are some groups of misandrists who like to call themselves feminist - but they are not into gender equality and hence not actual feminists.

I wish they would stop calling themselves that, they confuse people and give feminists a bad name.

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28-04-2016, 02:45 PM
RE: Do you like feminism?
Like a lot of people have pointed to, I think it's first necessary to define "feminism" before you can form an opinion as to whether or not you "like" it. Are you discussing the radical feminism that argues that women are in fact superior to men? Or are you talking about a more Wollstonecraftian feminism where the sexes are basically equal? I'm inclined to think that you mean the latter, in which case I definitely do like feminism (although there's a lot of complexities within the movement that I don't fully understand or necessarily agree with).

I think a good comparison would be with skepticism. Many people here identify as skeptics, and I'm guessing they don't think of themselves as having no ability to know anything definitively. Rather it's a more relaxed skepticism in which reason and evidence play a key role in determining the truth of an idea.
I don't want to derail the thread or anything, I just thought this could be a useful comparison to help clarify the topic.
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28-04-2016, 03:01 PM
RE: Do you like feminism?
(28-04-2016 01:32 PM)Dark Wanderer Wrote:  Ah, ok. I think I've heard some people say that they dislike feminists, but they don't strike me as sexists. I'm guessing that there are other nuances associated with it.

It comes down to the fact that people fall into one of two camps.

There are those who define "feminism" as "the idea that women are equal to men". In this sense, feminism is fine.

There are, on the other hand, those who define "feminism" as "the modern political movement which pays lip service to the above idea, but is in actuality just a bunch of entitled little shits who have discovered the power of internet crybullying".

I have no problem with feminism the idea. The modern feminist movement, however, is generally more about trying to paint one's own vitriol and delusions as a valid political statement than about gender equality.

(28-04-2016 01:37 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Case in point, Anita Sarkesian thinks Princess Peach and her 'rescue the princess' routine is sexists. A lot of other gamers strongly disagree with her. Ideally she'd be allowed to maker her YouTube videos in peace, but she had to get death threats and get dox'd because of her opinions on video games. This is why we can't have nice things.

Anita Sarkeesian is disliked for being a political demagogue and blatant liar, not for having contentious opinions on Princess Peach.

For those who haven't heard of her before, Sarkeesian is the voice behind the YouTube series Tropes Vs. Women In Video Games (she is also the founder of the Feminist Frequency website, which is a cesspit of vitriol and sexism, but that's rather beside the point at the moment). These videos ostensibly serve to point out the blatant misogyny in video game storytelling today, and expose the modern game industry as incredibly corrupt and male-dominated.

In reality, Sarkeesian simply lies about the games she features, and often gets basic details wrong in such a manner that implies she hasn't actually played the games for herself (I believe she was also caught stealing footage from other YouTubers to present as her own, but it's been a while since I actually gave a damn about anything she did, so you may wish to check that). For example, I believe it was her Hitman video (or maybe Grand Theft Auto?) which claimed that the game was incredibly sexist because it featured a strip club where you could murder the female strippers. She conveniently forgot to mention the fact that there were male strippers present (and fully murderable) as well, because it doesn't fit her narrative.

She also blatantly robbed her Kickstarter backers of their money without producing the promised twelve-video series, among other things. So, while I don't support making death threats or anything of the sort, trying to paint her as an innocent victim labeled as a monster merely for being a feminist is completely inaccurate.

She's just a lying bitch, and people don't like her as a result of that. The fact that she happens to be a lying bitch who wears a hat labeled "FEMINIST" is almost entirely tangential.

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28-04-2016, 03:02 PM
RE: Do you like feminism?
I am a feminist activist, but I don't especially «like» feminism. I don't like mouvements for social justice. I think it's pretty sad that we actualy need those else we would still be treating women (or any other group of people) like property, subserviant, inferior, alien, threatening, etc. and not like equals. I don't like feminism, but I think it's a necessity.

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28-04-2016, 03:16 PM
RE: Do you like feminism?
(28-04-2016 02:38 PM)Dom Wrote:  Feminism is about gender equality. There are some groups of misandrists who like to call themselves feminist - but they are not into gender equality and hence not actual feminists.

I wish they would stop calling themselves that, they confuse people and give feminists a bad name.

Smile At least you acknowledge the bad types exist. Many don't understand what they're doing to destroy actual feminism and blindly defend them as "feminists".


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