Do you take vitamins and other supplements?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
18-06-2013, 09:50 PM
RE: Do you take vitamins and other supplements?
Unless you have a deficiency of some kind, you're just buying the ingredients for very expensive piss.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like DerekS's post
19-06-2013, 01:35 AM (This post was last modified: 19-06-2013 01:45 AM by DeepThought.)
RE: Do you take vitamins and other supplements?
(18-06-2013 09:50 PM)DerekS Wrote:  Unless you have a deficiency of some kind, you're just buying the ingredients for very expensive piss.

And this is just grounded in pure highly distilled ignorance. Thumbsup

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xfrr2t_...cFgcvk3B8F
This experiment compares 2 groups of mice, each given the standard "healthy" lab mouse diet. One of them were given the standard diet + supplements.

Many of the things that are known to be beneficial are also cheap, like green tea extract or astragalus extract at roughly $2 for a months supply.

Some people don't know the difference between deficiency and optimal functioning. You can have the healthiest diet in the world without supplements and still not have enough of certain things to function optimally.

Also some compounds most people just are not getting in a natural diet. The green tea extract contains more polyphenols that drinking 9 cups a day of green tea, and without the caffeine.

As people age the ability to absorb nutrients properly also declines. A healthy diet only gets you so far. Having that extra boost can really make a difference, and it can be really cheap if you buy the right things.

“Forget Jesus, the stars died so you could be born.” - Lawrence M. Krauss
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-06-2013, 02:01 AM
RE: Do you take vitamins and other supplements?
Well, I'm convinced by a news video.
Actually, no, I'm not. Is there a study that shows an actual relevance between the mouse trial (if it's being accurately on the news program) and humans?
And just a quick glance at the wiki on the health effects of polphenols doesn't really provide much indication that you should actively put more in your diet than you'd get normally.

Humanists of West Florida
GC CoR
P'cola Skeptic in thePub
GC Freethinker
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-06-2013, 02:28 AM
RE: Do you take vitamins and other supplements?
(19-06-2013 02:01 AM)KeenIdiot Wrote:  Well, I'm convinced by a news video.
Actually, no, I'm not. Is there a study that shows an actual relevance between the mouse trial (if it's being accurately on the news program) and humans?
And just a quick glance at the wiki on the health effects of polphenols doesn't really provide much indication that you should actively put more in your diet than you'd get normally.

I'd agree with you if you were claiming you can't make a direct 1:1 comparison between animal models and humans.

Thing is the experiment repeated across numerous species gives similar results.

Humans are long lived and there is no money in creating human trials for things like supplements. Especially if it can improve the health of an aging human population and reduce their reliance on expensive drugs.

You can wait ~80 years for a human trial to finish. I'm not waiting that long.

There are enough similarities between rodents and humans. Mice are mammals and we share lots of the metabolic pathways even though their metabolism is 6 times faster. I wouldn't expect the same results but would still expect a modest ~10% increase in lifespan on average. If will probably dramatically increase your quality of life (healthspan) as you age.

Don't know why I mentioned polyphenols now. Polyphenols aren't the only beneficial compounds. Also just looking at and reading one article on polyphenols isn't enough to determine something like that.

“Forget Jesus, the stars died so you could be born.” - Lawrence M. Krauss
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-06-2013, 02:40 AM
RE: Do you take vitamins and other supplements?
Yeah sure, you do realize that supplements are themselves a multibillion dollar industry just by itself, right? That's why most of the ones you buy are produced by the same drug companies you are suspicious of. Even with your claims, an aging population will still get sick. Even those that aren't still make a huge profit, demonstrating they actually work, instead of angling ike they do in the US so that they don't have to provide demonstration of efficacy, would only yield them a bigger profit.

And no, rats don't compare particularly well with humans. It's why drug companies tend to release lots of rat studies but hardly any human studies. They can show maybe there's a beneficial effect, but most often you get something promising in rat studies that doesn't translate to humans.

You mentioned because you belive they have benefit, obviously. Now you've been caught out. No, one article doesn't make me fully informed but it gives me an idea of what you're talking about.
And the best they have are in vitro studies, again a helpful tool if you want to fake results, not so helpful if you're trying to demonstrate efficacy.

Yes, I have a bias towards evidence, good evidence. Even more, I like to see that there is some sort of regulation being done on the products being provided, something supplements and vitamins are exempt from.

Humanists of West Florida
GC CoR
P'cola Skeptic in thePub
GC Freethinker
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-06-2013, 02:44 AM
RE: Do you take vitamins and other supplements?
So I'm one of those people with expensive piss.

I've been taking this vitamin-mineral supplement (iron-free version) once a day for the past 25 years. It's made by a small, family-owned and operated California company I respect. I've corresponded with some of their principals and been impressed with their openness and responsiveness. I have a strong sense of their integrity, which means a lot to me.

Here's some material they've put on their website to support the safety and effectiveness of their products:

http://supernutritionusa.com/images/pdfs...02_NSS.pdf

Some of the studies sound pretty convincing. But I'm not a nutritional scientist and I can't evaluate their legitimacy.

What I can say is that I'm doing great on this program—a lot better physically, I think, than most of my age-mates. Obviously I can't say for sure it's because of the Opti-Energy Packs. It could be the placebo effect. Or it could be a matter of diet or lifestyle or genes. I realize I might be like the guy in the old joke:

A man comes across another man standing on the street, continually snapping his fingers. He watches for a while, fascinated, then comes up to the finger-snapping man and says:

"Excuse me, but I notice you're continually snapping your fingers. Why is that?"

"It's to keep the elephants away, of course" says the finger-snapper.

"But . . . there are no elephants here."

"Exactly! Works damn well, don't it!"
I suppose I could stop snapping my fingers and see what happens, but why take the chance? The supplements aren't that much of a financial burden. If it ain't broke . . .

Religious disputes are like arguments in a madhouse over which inmate really is Napoleon.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like cufflink's post
19-06-2013, 02:53 AM
RE: Do you take vitamins and other supplements?
Yup, I'd rather not wait 80 years for the definitive proof. Thats really what it would take with the kind of evidence you want.

I think there is enough evidence there to draw some conclusions. We may not be rodents but when it comes to food and nutrition I think we are fairly similar other than our reliance on dietary vitamin c (mice produce their own vitamin c).

I'm happy to run my own experiment on myself. It's hardly costing me anything and the health benefits could be significant. It's my body and I think what I'm doing is justified by a reasonable amount of evidence.

“Forget Jesus, the stars died so you could be born.” - Lawrence M. Krauss
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-06-2013, 03:14 AM (This post was last modified: 19-06-2013 03:22 AM by KeenIdiot.)
RE: Do you take vitamins and other supplements?
Uh...
Quote:Fiction: High doses of vitamins and minerals are
toxic.
Bullshit. Vitamin Toxicity
Now, admittedly it depends on the type. It's very difficult to od on water soluable vitamins, which is why those are the ones that are hawked off on people. Your body takes as much as it need and then dumps the rest.
Now, fat soluble vitamins are more dangerous, as they will collect in your body, and this is why they tend to get hawked less. (In comparison to say, vitamin C)
And as for minerals, don't take to much iron if you're a guy, for example.
And later on in the paper they seem to backtrack on that slightly, but still.
As for the studies... I was able to locate a couple on pub med, but I noticed the paper by Bruce Ames is listed. Bruce Ames is a solid researcher, and the study is legit. But it's concerning the treatment of genetic diseases, not relevant to an otherwise healthy adult.
The claims about vitamin C have since been disproved, though. I'm concerned they're cherry picking studies which is why the majority of the studies are from the early to mid 90's.
The Cochrane institute did a large review of studies and could not find a substantive result. Linus Pauling's claims regarding vitamin have not been verified, no study after his was able to replicate his results.
My real concern is this:
Quote:Highest potency B-complex for high energy production
Antioxidant protection for anti-aging and immune support - 1,200 mg vitamin C, 15,000 IU beta-carotene, 250 mcg selenium, 250 mg methionine, and 300 mg cysteine
Strong bone health support - 1,250 mg calcium, 700 mg magnesium, 1,000 IU vitamin D, 1,200 mg vitamin C and 3 mg boron
Heart healthy - 1,000 mcg folic acid, 200 mg vitamin B6, 1,000 mcg vitamin B12 and 800 IU vitamin E
Niacin-rich - 300 mg per daily dose
1 packet per day (6 tablets per packet and 30 packets per box)
Easy-swallow version is 3 packets per day (4 small tablets per packet and 90 packets per box)
Also available Iron-free
Their claims are not equivalent to the studies they cite.

Quote:The supplements aren't that much of a financial burden. If it ain't broke . . .
You could say the same about dropping money in the collection plate.

Humanists of West Florida
GC CoR
P'cola Skeptic in thePub
GC Freethinker
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-06-2013, 03:18 AM
RE: Do you take vitamins and other supplements?
(19-06-2013 02:53 AM)DeepThought Wrote:  Yup, I'd rather not wait 80 years for the definitive proof. Thats really what it would take with the kind of evidence you want.
Just evidence of efficacy, real efficacy would be great.
Otherwise just save money and pray. There are studies supporting that too.

Quote:
I'm happy to run my own experiment on myself. It's hardly costing me anything and the health benefits could be significant. It's my body and I think what I'm doing is justified by a reasonable amount of evidence.
See, here's the thing. It costs you little, but it's jingle in their pocket They have no oversight, no need to prove their product works, and many people will to by their product simply because it doesn't hurt.

This is why you are now seeing products markets at stores that offer stem ells for de-aging, and why products compete in offering anti-oxidants or free radicals.

Humanists of West Florida
GC CoR
P'cola Skeptic in thePub
GC Freethinker
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-06-2013, 03:33 AM
RE: Do you take vitamins and other supplements?
(19-06-2013 03:18 AM)KeenIdiot Wrote:  
(19-06-2013 02:53 AM)DeepThought Wrote:  Yup, I'd rather not wait 80 years for the definitive proof. Thats really what it would take with the kind of evidence you want.
Just evidence of efficacy, real efficacy would be great.
Otherwise just save money and pray. There are studies supporting that too.

Quote:
I'm happy to run my own experiment on myself. It's hardly costing me anything and the health benefits could be significant. It's my body and I think what I'm doing is justified by a reasonable amount of evidence.
See, here's the thing. It costs you little, but it's jingle in their pocket They have no oversight, no need to prove their product works, and many people will to by their product simply because it doesn't hurt.

This is why you are now seeing products markets at stores that offer stem ells for de-aging, and why products compete in offering anti-oxidants or free radicals.

No need to be an ass, since you happily dismiss any animal studies out of hand I'm wondering what kind of study you would accept for evidence.

“Forget Jesus, the stars died so you could be born.” - Lawrence M. Krauss
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: