Do you take vitamins and other supplements?
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19-06-2013, 05:18 AM
RE: Do you take vitamins and other supplements?
(18-06-2013 06:05 PM)amyb Wrote:  
(18-06-2013 05:17 PM)viocjit Wrote:  3.If vitamins and placebo help you I think that this is a placebo effect.

What about instances where you get blood tests, are told you have a deficiency, and then take vits/supplements, get another blood test, and are told you don't have a deficiency anymore?

I have dental problems brought on by vitamin deficiency.

What about people who got scurvy on boats in the past, and then ate some citrus fruit, and were better? The scurvy was all in their mind, I guess.

Certainly, there are some supplements that make outrageous claims on the bottle, but that doesn't mean no supplements have any benefits. The human body actually needs certain vitamins and minerals, and if it doesn't have them, it can have very real, measurable effects.

I wrote that about those who take vitamins and are not sick.
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19-06-2013, 05:45 AM (This post was last modified: 19-06-2013 06:14 AM by DeepThought.)
RE: Do you take vitamins and other supplements?
Ok, how about TA-65 (telomerase activator) which is an enzyme that was isolated from the astragalus plant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TA-65

The studies were done in vivo and in vitro on human volunteers and cell cultures. It demonstrates a real physiological effect on the genetic level, the lengthening of telomeres which is one of the known biomarkers of aging.

I take a cheap supplement (astragalus extract) which has this enzyme in it though in lower doses than the proprietary treatment.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20822369

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3045570/

http://www.mdpi.com/2073-4409/2/1/57


Edit:

I might add that astragalus is known to have other beneficial effects other than just lengthening of telomeres like modulating the immune system and reducing inflammation or over aggressive immune response. There are probably a bunch of other compounds that are beneficial which are included in the extract other than ta-65.

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19-06-2013, 11:24 AM
RE: Do you take vitamins and other supplements?
(19-06-2013 05:45 AM)DeepThought Wrote:  Ok, how about TA-65 (telomerase activator) which is an enzyme that was isolated from the astragalus plant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TA-65

The studies were done in vivo and in vitro on human volunteers and cell cultures. It demonstrates a real physiological effect on the genetic level, the lengthening of telomeres which is one of the known biomarkers of aging.

I take a cheap supplement (astragalus extract) which has this enzyme in it though in lower doses than the proprietary treatment.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20822369

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3045570/

http://www.mdpi.com/2073-4409/2/1/57


Edit:

I might add that astragalus is known to have other beneficial effects other than just lengthening of telomeres like modulating the immune system and reducing inflammation or over aggressive immune response. There are probably a bunch of other compounds that are beneficial which are included in the extract other than ta-65.


I've thought about adding astragalus to my supplements but it wouldn't be the extracted enzyme. The TA65 is so expensive, I couldn't afford it.

The resveratrol I take is affordable and is being studied at Harvard and elsewhere.

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/03/11...sveratrol/

http://www.nih.gov/researchmatters/march...ratrol.htm


To those of you who discredit studies done on rats, most drugs started as research in the lab on rats.

DeepThought, do you take astragalus or the TA65?

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19-06-2013, 04:35 PM
RE: Do you take vitamins and other supplements?
(19-06-2013 05:45 AM)DeepThought Wrote:  Ok, how about TA-65 (telomerase activator) which is an enzyme that was isolated from the astragalus plant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TA-65

The studies were done in vivo and in vitro on human volunteers and cell cultures. It demonstrates a real physiological effect on the genetic level, the lengthening of telomeres which is one of the known biomarkers of aging.

I take a cheap supplement (astragalus extract) which has this enzyme in it though in lower doses than the proprietary treatment.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20822369

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3045570/

http://www.mdpi.com/2073-4409/2/1/57


Edit:

I might add that astragalus is known to have other beneficial effects other than just lengthening of telomeres like modulating the immune system and reducing inflammation or over aggressive immune response. There are probably a bunch of other compounds that are beneficial which are included in the extract other than ta-65.

I don't like taking animal studies because most go no where. Yeah, they're good to show there may be a worthwhile effect to be studied, but until it's confirmed in human trials it's interesting but in no way supported. Animal trials aren't meant to show effect, just that there may be something worthwhile to look into. You can't go from a rat study and claim that this is good evidence of efficacy in humans, though if you feel like turning a buck they are helpful as advertisement.

Now, here you have a study done on humans, that at least demonstrates efficacy in humans. Which is great, and does seem to have positive reults, if minor. Though you didn't have to link the same study twice. And the wiki article states that some of the reported benefits on a consumer level are from a user survey, not clincal studies. And the reported improvements are mostly self reported and are subject to placebo effect.
The reason I like searching the Cochrane Collaboration's library of reviews is they don't pick out particular studies but compile many studies after holding them to a standard. They do have some for astralagus, but most were of poor quality and results could not be extrapolated from them.
There were some that, though still of poor quality seemed to indicate a worthwhile effect to be further studied.

The problem with the extract is that while the enzyme is extracted from the plant, the studies you left me and the studies I pulled up showed no indication of whether the amount present in the plant is to such a level to have an effect.

If you have the time, might be good to check out both of Ben Goldacre's books, Bad Science and Bad Pharma, both should demonstrate why I/m o skeptical of the results you're reporting and the taking of supplements.

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19-06-2013, 05:12 PM (This post was last modified: 19-06-2013 06:17 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Do you take vitamins and other supplements?
Resveratrol, curcumin, milk thistle, fenugreek, cinnamon, CoQ10, D3, saw palmetto, fish/krill oil.

(19-06-2013 11:24 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  I've thought about adding astragalus to my supplements but it wouldn't be the extracted enzyme. The TA65 is so expensive, I couldn't afford it.

Expensive is an understatement! Yikes! Blink

I do use that dude for my resveratrol and curcumin, though. He's more expensive but he gets a Certificate of Analysis for every batch of raw product he purchases and is more worried than most about delivery systems and micronizing to maximize absorption and bioavailability (curcumin in particular has a very low bioavailability).

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19-06-2013, 06:31 PM
RE: Do you take vitamins and other supplements?
(19-06-2013 04:35 PM)KeenIdiot Wrote:  I don't like taking animal studies because most go no where. Yeah, they're good to show there may be a worthwhile effect to be studied, but until it's confirmed in human trials it's interesting but in no way supported. Animal trials aren't meant to show effect, just that there may be something worthwhile to look into. You can't go from a rat study and claim that this is good evidence of efficacy in humans, though if you feel like turning a buck they are helpful as advertisement.

Now, here you have a study done on humans, that at least demonstrates efficacy in humans. Which is great, and does seem to have positive reults, if minor. Though you didn't have to link the same study twice. And the wiki article states that some of the reported benefits on a consumer level are from a user survey, not clincal studies. And the reported improvements are mostly self reported and are subject to placebo effect.
The reason I like searching the Cochrane Collaboration's library of reviews is they don't pick out particular studies but compile many studies after holding them to a standard. They do have some for astralagus, but most were of poor quality and results could not be extrapolated from them.
There were some that, though still of poor quality seemed to indicate a worthwhile effect to be further studied.

The problem with the extract is that while the enzyme is extracted from the plant, the studies you left me and the studies I pulled up showed no indication of whether the amount present in the plant is to such a level to have an effect.

If you have the time, might be good to check out both of Ben Goldacre's books, Bad Science and Bad Pharma, both should demonstrate why I/m o skeptical of the results you're reporting and the taking of supplements.

I think I see what is happening here...
[Image: shifting_goals2.jpg]


but ok, I'll bite.

How about this?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19609891
Regarding omega 3 supplementation.

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19-06-2013, 07:26 PM
RE: Do you take vitamins and other supplements?
[Image: em80.gif]

And I have daily:

a multivitamin pill
fish oil capsules
Vitamin B complex tablets
Vitamin C (1500 mg) tablets
Vitamin D and calcium tablets
Vitamin P (bioflavonoid) in the form of Bitter Buckwheat Tea drinks
Primitive TA65 in the form of drinks made with dried astragalus stem slices
Drinks made with dried hawthorn fruits

Weekly:
Vitamin A capsules
Vitamin E capsules

That's pretty much it.

Resveratrol ? A good idea for me.

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19-06-2013, 09:59 PM (This post was last modified: 19-06-2013 10:28 PM by KeenIdiot.)
RE: Do you take vitamins and other supplements?
(19-06-2013 06:31 PM)DeepThought Wrote:  
(19-06-2013 04:35 PM)KeenIdiot Wrote:  I don't like taking animal studies because most go no where. Yeah, they're good to show there may be a worthwhile effect to be studied, but until it's confirmed in human trials it's interesting but in no way supported. Animal trials aren't meant to show effect, just that there may be something worthwhile to look into. You can't go from a rat study and claim that this is good evidence of efficacy in humans, though if you feel like turning a buck they are helpful as advertisement.

Now, here you have a study done on humans, that at least demonstrates efficacy in humans. Which is great, and does seem to have positive reults, if minor. Though you didn't have to link the same study twice. And the wiki article states that some of the reported benefits on a consumer level are from a user survey, not clincal studies. And the reported improvements are mostly self reported and are subject to placebo effect.
The reason I like searching the Cochrane Collaboration's library of reviews is they don't pick out particular studies but compile many studies after holding them to a standard. They do have some for astralagus, but most were of poor quality and results could not be extrapolated from them.
There were some that, though still of poor quality seemed to indicate a worthwhile effect to be further studied.

The problem with the extract is that while the enzyme is extracted from the plant, the studies you left me and the studies I pulled up showed no indication of whether the amount present in the plant is to such a level to have an effect.

If you have the time, might be good to check out both of Ben Goldacre's books, Bad Science and Bad Pharma, both should demonstrate why I/m o skeptical of the results you're reporting and the taking of supplements.

I think I see what is happening here...
[Image: shifting_goals2.jpg]


but ok, I'll bite.

How about this?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19609891
Regarding omega 3 supplementation.
Moving the goal posts? How so? The studies you cite, I admitted do support your claim regarding TA-65. My statement follwing was that this has no bearing on whether the supplement you are taking has enough of the enzyme to provide you any benefit. As I mentioned earlier, supplements do not have to show any sort of efficacy of their product and are not regulated in any fashion.

As for your link on Omega 3, from the side of the page here's a more recent study:
Efficacy of omega-3 fatty acid supplements (eicosapentaenoic acid and docosahexaenoic acid) in the secondary prevention of cardiovascular disease: a meta-analysis of randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trials.

Quote:CONCLUSION:
Our meta-analysis showed insufficient evidence of a secondary preventive effect of omega-3 fatty acid supplements against overall cardiovascular events among patients with a history of cardiovascular disease.
I checked the Cochrane review sourced in the study you linked and it came to a similar conclusion. There are other studies on the Cochrane review site that looked at different possible uses, but I don't have a lot of time so I narrowed to the ones relating to the study you linked.

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19-06-2013, 10:22 PM
RE: Do you take vitamins and other supplements?
(19-06-2013 07:26 PM)HU.Junyuan Wrote:  [Image: em80.gif]

And I have daily:

a multivitamin pill
fish oil capsules
Vitamin B complex tablets
Vitamin C (1500 mg) tablets
Vitamin D and calcium tablets
Vitamin P (bioflavonoid) in the form of Bitter Buckwheat Tea drinks
Primitive TA65 in the form of drinks made with dried astragalus stem slices
Drinks made with dried hawthorn fruits

Weekly:
Vitamin A capsules
Vitamin E capsules

That's pretty much it.

Resveratrol ? A good idea for me.

Ok, so how much does the TA65 drink with the dried astragalus stems cost and is there enough of the TA65 in it to make a difference?

Shakespeare Insult 13 – Henry IV Part 1
“That trunk of humours, that bolting-hutch of beastliness, that swollen parcel of dropsies, that huge bombard of sack, that stuffed cloak-bag of guts, that reverend vice, that grey Iniquity, that father ruffian, that vanity in years?”
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20-06-2013, 02:45 AM (This post was last modified: 20-06-2013 02:53 AM by HU.Junyuan.)
RE: Do you take vitamins and other supplements?
(19-06-2013 10:22 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  
(19-06-2013 07:26 PM)HU.Junyuan Wrote:  [Image: em80.gif]

And I have daily:

a multivitamin pill
fish oil capsules
Vitamin B complex tablets
Vitamin C (1500 mg) tablets
Vitamin D and calcium tablets
Vitamin P (bioflavonoid) in the form of Bitter Buckwheat Tea drinks
Primitive TA65 in the form of drinks made with dried astragalus stem slices
Drinks made with dried hawthorn fruits

Weekly:
Vitamin A capsules
Vitamin E capsules

That's pretty much it.

Resveratrol ? A good idea for me.

Ok, so how much does the TA65 drink with the dried astragalus stems cost and is there enough of the TA65 in it to make a difference?

I have no idea how much ta65 I am getting. but dried astragalus stem slices are a kind of traditional Chinese medicine, said to be able to supplement one's Yuan Qi, the wholesome capability with which one can fight against illnesses.

besides, it tastes good.

It costs me 0.2 dollars a day.

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