Do you take vitamins and other supplements?
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20-06-2013, 07:42 AM
RE: Do you take vitamins and other supplements?
There are various mushrooms that claim to have various effects from improving cognition and memory to having antiviral and antibacterial properties.

Shiitake and Lions mane. Also they are very cheap and available everywhere.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20491636
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19596954
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10522061

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18844328

“Forget Jesus, the stars died so you could be born.” - Lawrence M. Krauss
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20-06-2013, 09:41 AM
RE: Do you take vitamins and other supplements?
No vitamins, just caffeine and nicotine. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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21-06-2013, 07:48 AM
RE: Do you take vitamins and other supplements?
I'm looking for cheap supplements that can improve memory and attention.

So far I found lions mane.

I heard of a kind of mushroom that acts as an MAO-A Inhibitor. A friend of a friend died by combining a mushroom extract with mature cheese and causing a hypertensive crisis (cheese effect).

I thought it was the Reishi Mushroom, or Cordiceps. Could be mistaken.

Does anyone know of a mushroom that acts as an MAO inhibitor?

“Forget Jesus, the stars died so you could be born.” - Lawrence M. Krauss
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21-06-2013, 08:35 AM
RE: Do you take vitamins and other supplements?
(20-06-2013 09:41 AM)Chas Wrote:  No vitamins, just caffeine and nicotine. Drinking Beverage

The breakfast of champions. Thumbsup

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21-06-2013, 08:39 AM
RE: Do you take vitamins and other supplements?
I took multivitamins-multiminerals and calcium consistently for years. Now I do when I think of it. I was supposed to take calcium for breast health...that didn't work out so well now did it? Also, too much calcium and I get kidney stones, too little and I get small bone fractures.

If I think about it I take them. If I get real run down, I will load up on B-complex and C for a few days.

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22-06-2013, 11:43 PM
RE: Do you take vitamins and other supplements?
I just confirmed it was actually the reishi mushroom that caused the hypertensive crisis. The problem with allot of that stuff is all the compounds haven't been isolated and properly identified. Only some plants with allot of commercial interest have been studied in great detail. Like coffee and cocoa.

Another problem with mushrooms is the alkaloids and other active compounds vary widely in concentration depending on where and how they grow. So far all that is known about the Reishi mushroom is it produces some kind of non-reversible MAO inhibitor. It's probably non selective as well. It will probably block MAO-A and MAO-B. Something to keep in mind if you take the extract yourself.

The extract could vary wildly in alkaloid content from one batch to another.
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23-06-2013, 01:06 AM (This post was last modified: 23-06-2013 01:31 AM by DeepThought.)
RE: Do you take vitamins and other supplements?
(19-06-2013 02:40 AM)KeenIdiot Wrote:  Yeah sure, you do realize that supplements are themselves a multibillion dollar industry just by itself, right? That's why most of the ones you buy are produced by the same drug companies you are suspicious of. Even with your claims, an aging population will still get sick. Even those that aren't still make a huge profit, demonstrating they actually work, instead of angling ike they do in the US so that they don't have to provide demonstration of efficacy, would only yield them a bigger profit.
Nice narrative. Lets compare supplements to drugs companies. 68 Billion revenue from sales of supplements. ~691 billion in revenue for drug companies.

I'd like to break down the revenue from supplement sales further but don't know where to find that data in a convenient form.

There are plenty of reasons why large scale human trials aren't done. Human trials are extremely expensive. These trials would be long term trials if you want to prove health and longevity.

The main reason is supplements are not patentable. There is no protection for it. The moment a company invests that kind of money then other companies can jump on board and compete with them using their own study against them.

The only way you will see a proper large scale human trials is if it's government funded.

(19-06-2013 02:40 AM)KeenIdiot Wrote:  And no, rats don't compare particularly well with humans. It's why drug companies tend to release lots of rat studies but hardly any human studies. They can show maybe there's a beneficial effect, but most often you get something promising in rat studies that doesn't translate to humans.

You mentioned because you belive they have benefit, obviously. Now you've been caught out. No, one article doesn't make me fully informed but it gives me an idea of what you're talking about.
And the best they have are in vitro studies, again a helpful tool if you want to fake results, not so helpful if you're trying to demonstrate efficacy.

Yes, I have a bias towards evidence, good evidence. Even more, I like to see that there is some sort of regulation being done on the products being provided, something supplements and vitamins are exempt from.

Rodents and other mammalian species do compare well with humans otherwise they wouldn't be used in studies. The study I referenced at the beginning of this thread is particularly relevant because its not just testing the effect of a single compound.

Drug trials test individual compounds and yes, there are small differences in metabolic pathways between different species. Dogs can't metabolise one of the alkaloids in cocoa. Chocolate is toxic in dogs. The main reason why drug trials fail at the animal testing stage is because of the validity of the animal model. If a compound is found to be toxic in mice (liver enzymes indicate liver breakdown, etc,) the testing usually stops at that point.

All in all allot of the stuff that happens in humans happens in other mammals too. You can use allot of the same drugs in dogs and cats like selegiline, valium and ketamine and they have similar effects.

The study I showed uses a large range of supplements all mixed together. It's a plethora of compounds and while allot of them are known essential nutrients there are allot of compounds in extracts that are not identified and have unknown function and molecular structure. When you compare generic diets you can actually make fairly good comparisons.

The dietary recommendations we have today are based on the high yield breeding diet for rodents. Tweaking values until you have a diet that gave rodents the largest and greatest number of offspring. This research was done over 50 years ago.

(19-06-2013 03:18 AM)KeenIdiot Wrote:  See, here's the thing. It costs you little, but it's jingle in their pocket They have no oversight, no need to prove their product works, and many people will to by their product simply because it doesn't hurt.

This is why you are now seeing products markets at stores that offer stem ells for de-aging, and why products compete in offering anti-oxidants or free radicals.

Well, I haven't seen stem cells offered where I go shopping. It definitely helps to do your research. I'll admit there is allot of bullshit out there. There is also allot of good stuff out there also.

(19-06-2013 04:35 PM)KeenIdiot Wrote:  I don't like taking animal studies because most go no where. Yeah, they're good to show there may be a worthwhile effect to be studied, but until it's confirmed in human trials it's interesting but in no way supported. Animal trials aren't meant to show effect, just that there may be something worthwhile to look into. You can't go from a rat study and claim that this is good evidence of efficacy in humans, though if you feel like turning a buck they are helpful as advertisement.

Now, here you have a study done on humans, that at least demonstrates efficacy in humans. Which is great, and does seem to have positive reults, if minor. Though you didn't have to link the same study twice. And the wiki article states that some of the reported benefits on a consumer level are from a user survey, not clincal studies. And the reported improvements are mostly self reported and are subject to placebo effect.
The reason I like searching the Cochrane Collaboration's library of reviews is they don't pick out particular studies but compile many studies after holding them to a standard. They do have some for astralagus, but most were of poor quality and results could not be extrapolated from them.
There were some that, though still of poor quality seemed to indicate a worthwhile effect to be further studied.

The problem with the extract is that while the enzyme is extracted from the plant, the studies you left me and the studies I pulled up showed no indication of whether the amount present in the plant is to such a level to have an effect.

If you have the time, might be good to check out both of Ben Goldacre's books, Bad Science and Bad Pharma, both should demonstrate why I/m o skeptical of the results you're reporting and the taking of supplements.

Sceptical is fine with me. I'm going to continue taking supplements. The astragalus extract I take - I can say as a first hand account that I notice the difference when I take it. My skin looks visibly younger and healthier when I take it. My skin goes back to normal about a week after I stop. I cycle the supplement. 1 month on and 1 month off since I take high doses to maximise the effect of the ta-65 enzyme.

There are other supplements like the mushrooms I mentioned that have effect on cognition beyond what you call the placebo effect. Just because the compounds haven't been identified doesn't mean there aren't there.

Almost every drug that exists today is based on something that was first found in nature. Drug companies change the molecule a bit to make it synthetic but preserve most of it's function, then they patent it, and sell it at a huge profit.

(19-06-2013 09:59 PM)KeenIdiot Wrote:  Moving the goal posts? How so? The studies you cite, I admitted do support your claim regarding TA-65. My statement follwing was that this has no bearing on whether the supplement you are taking has enough of the enzyme to provide you any benefit. As I mentioned earlier, supplements do not have to show any sort of efficacy of their product and are not regulated in any fashion.

As for your link on Omega 3, from the side of the page here's a more recent study:
Efficacy of omega-3 fatty acid supplements (eicosapentaenoic acid and docosahexaenoic acid) in the secondary prevention of cardiovascular disease: a meta-analysis of randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trials.

Quote:CONCLUSION:
Our meta-analysis showed insufficient evidence of a secondary preventive effect of omega-3 fatty acid supplements against overall cardiovascular events among patients with a history of cardiovascular disease.
I checked the Cochrane review sourced in the study you linked and it came to a similar conclusion. There are other studies on the Cochrane review site that looked at different possible uses, but I don't have a lot of time so I narrowed to the ones relating to the study you linked.

Yeah, the omega 3 was a stupid example to link. I don't take it myself and I know it has very limited use. I think there is evidence that its effective in people who have diets high in omega 6. Omega 6 is proinflammatory and is found in grainy foods like wheat. There are some breads now that are fortified with omega 3 as a result of that research.

If you have the right ratio of omega 3 and omega 6 you counteract the inflammatory effects of omega 6.

The moving goalposts comment was based on you not being happy with any evidence.


--------------------------

One of the main things I hate about the healthcare system in it's current form is that it's totally focussed on the disease state.

It's the wait untill it breaks and then fix it approach which is about as wrong headed as it's possible to be.

I'd rather focus on health, and staying that way. There is less money in people staying healthy then there is in fixing a broken diseased human who is desperate for anything to fix them.

You can wait until you break down. I'd rather be as healthy as possible.

“Forget Jesus, the stars died so you could be born.” - Lawrence M. Krauss
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23-06-2013, 02:53 AM (This post was last modified: 23-06-2013 03:06 AM by DeepThought.)
RE: Do you take vitamins and other supplements?
Have a look at this: http://www.lef.org/featured-articles/INF...E_1018.htm

Synthetic alpha tocopherol (Vitamin E) shown to increase cancer risk - a large scale government funded study designed to fail from the outset.

It doesn't paint a pretty picture for supplements... I wonder why studies like this are funded?

If they had studied Gamma Tocopherol - the good vitamin E the results would be very different.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11121464

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15753180

This is why it's important to do your research and take the right high quality supplements.
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23-06-2013, 08:11 AM
RE: Do you take vitamins and other supplements?
(23-06-2013 02:53 AM)DeepThought Wrote:  Have a look at this: http://www.lef.org/featured-articles/INF...E_1018.htm

Synthetic alpha tocopherol (Vitamin E) shown to increase cancer risk - a large scale government funded study designed to fail from the outset.

It doesn't paint a pretty picture for supplements... I wonder why studies like this are funded?

If they had studied Gamma Tocopherol - the good vitamin E the results would be very different.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11121464

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15753180

This is why it's important to do your research and take the right high quality supplements.

Without double-blind human trials, I ain't takin' any of this.

Seriously, you're going to ingest stuff of unknown quality, in uncontrolled doses, of unconfirmed efficacy, with unsupported claims, ...

This is woo. Drinking Beverage

Have you tried the faith healer or shaman yet? Consider

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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23-06-2013, 08:20 AM
RE: Do you take vitamins and other supplements?
(23-06-2013 08:11 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(23-06-2013 02:53 AM)DeepThought Wrote:  Have a look at this: http://www.lef.org/featured-articles/INF...E_1018.htm

Synthetic alpha tocopherol (Vitamin E) shown to increase cancer risk - a large scale government funded study designed to fail from the outset.

It doesn't paint a pretty picture for supplements... I wonder why studies like this are funded?

If they had studied Gamma Tocopherol - the good vitamin E the results would be very different.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11121464

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15753180

This is why it's important to do your research and take the right high quality supplements.

Without double-blind human trials, I ain't takin' any of this.

Seriously, you're going to ingest stuff of unknown quality, in uncontrolled doses, of unconfirmed efficacy, with unsupported claims, ...

This is woo. Drinking Beverage

Have you tried the faith healer or shaman yet? Consider

You know what they call alternative medicine once it is proven to work? MEDICINE! These supplements are just the 21st century version of snake oil.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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