Do you think everyone should be allowed to have kids?
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05-04-2014, 01:38 PM
RE: Do you think everyone should be allowed to have kids?
(05-04-2014 01:21 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  
(05-04-2014 12:44 PM)Paranoidsam Wrote:  Trouble is, by the time a parent has shown they're unfit to raise children, the damage is done.

We've had a string of shocking cases of neglect and abuse over the past few years...

This was one of the worst... http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mick_Philpott

I have this cousin "K"
K has 2 kids "L"-girl and "O"-boy.
When O was about 8 months he went to a well check with his pediatrician and the doctor called children services because he was so tiny and so skinny the doctor could not believe he was 8 months old. Children services had several meeting with K telling her how and how often to feed O, but he still wasn't growing or gaining weight. Finally a woman from children services brought K a can of formula, went over the instructions on how to make it, and told her she would be back in 2 days to check on O and the formula should be gone by then. When the woman returned 2 days later the can if formula sat on the counter where she left it, unopened. O was removed from K's care and placed in a foster home. K was then ordered to have routine visits from children services in order to keep her daughter L. All was well for a few months, L was three she was big enough to feed herself (sadly). Until one day L had huge shoe shaped bruise on her back. K insisted that is was her boyfriend and not her who kicked L. So they let her keep L and scheduled her to start doing drug tests. K failed her first drug test. By this time my aunt had finally gotten baby O out of foster care and living with her so L went to live with my aunt too. K was livid. How dare they take her only means to child support and food stamps? How date they remove her little money makers? Who would buy her drugs now??
Ever since then it's been a back and forth game K gets therapy passes a few blood tests and take O and L back. K fails drug tests or one of the kids gets a bruise back to my aunt again.
O is now 5 and L is 8, what kind of life is this for children?
This is what I mean about stricter. One time only second chance maybe depending on why they were removed, but just giving them back over and over is unacceptable.

Over here we have an organization called Social Services. They handle everything from care for the elderly to dealing with child abuse.

They've come under a lot of flak recently because of the string of child deaths due to severe neglect and/or abuse, where Social Services failed to act.

In this country I think its more a case of bureaucracy and red tape preventing them from doing their jobs, rather than a lack of strictness.

But then again, there have been several incidences where "opportunities to intervene were missed or ignored"... So it could also just be plain incompetence.

They always say the same thing, that "lessons must be learned"... But every year there's another case every bit as shocking as the last.

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05-04-2014, 01:46 PM
RE: Do you think everyone should be allowed to have kids?
(05-04-2014 01:38 PM)Paranoidsam Wrote:  
(05-04-2014 01:21 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  I have this cousin "K"
K has 2 kids "L"-girl and "O"-boy.
When O was about 8 months he went to a well check with his pediatrician and the doctor called children services because he was so tiny and so skinny the doctor could not believe he was 8 months old. Children services had several meeting with K telling her how and how often to feed O, but he still wasn't growing or gaining weight. Finally a woman from children services brought K a can of formula, went over the instructions on how to make it, and told her she would be back in 2 days to check on O and the formula should be gone by then. When the woman returned 2 days later the can if formula sat on the counter where she left it, unopened. O was removed from K's care and placed in a foster home. K was then ordered to have routine visits from children services in order to keep her daughter L. All was well for a few months, L was three she was big enough to feed herself (sadly). Until one day L had huge shoe shaped bruise on her back. K insisted that is was her boyfriend and not her who kicked L. So they let her keep L and scheduled her to start doing drug tests. K failed her first drug test. By this time my aunt had finally gotten baby O out of foster care and living with her so L went to live with my aunt too. K was livid. How dare they take her only means to child support and food stamps? How date they remove her little money makers? Who would buy her drugs now??
Ever since then it's been a back and forth game K gets therapy passes a few blood tests and take O and L back. K fails drug tests or one of the kids gets a bruise back to my aunt again.
O is now 5 and L is 8, what kind of life is this for children?
This is what I mean about stricter. One time only second chance maybe depending on why they were removed, but just giving them back over and over is unacceptable.

Over here we have an organization called Social Services. They handle everything from care for the elderly to dealing with child abuse.

They've come under a lot of flak recently because of the string of child deaths due to severe neglect and/or abuse, where Social Services failed to act.

In this country I think its more a case of bureaucracy and red tape preventing them from doing their jobs, rather than a lack of strictness.

But then again, there have been several incidences where "opportunities to intervene were missed or ignored"... So it could also just be plain incompetence.

They always say the same thing, that "lessons must be learned"... But every year there's another case every bit as shocking as the last.

I don't where over here is, but here I am it's not really a strictness issue either. It's case workers having way too many kids each, lack of government funding, and this ridiculous belief that mothers have this magical love connection with their children. These stupid programs like bring home families (I think that's what it's called) where they try to put kids back with their abusive parents because they think being with your biological parents is good for you. Very annoying.

Anyways sorry for derailing the thread.

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05-04-2014, 01:48 PM
RE: Do you think everyone should be allowed to have kids?
(05-04-2014 01:46 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  
(05-04-2014 01:38 PM)Paranoidsam Wrote:  Over here we have an organization called Social Services. They handle everything from care for the elderly to dealing with child abuse.

They've come under a lot of flak recently because of the string of child deaths due to severe neglect and/or abuse, where Social Services failed to act.

In this country I think its more a case of bureaucracy and red tape preventing them from doing their jobs, rather than a lack of strictness.

But then again, there have been several incidences where "opportunities to intervene were missed or ignored"... So it could also just be plain incompetence.

They always say the same thing, that "lessons must be learned"... But every year there's another case every bit as shocking as the last.

I don't where over here is, but here I am it's not really a strictness issue either. It's case workers having way too many kids each, lack of government funding, and this ridiculous belief that mothers have this magical love connection with their children. These stupid programs like bring home families (I think that's what it's called) where they try to put kids back with their abusive parents because they think being with your biological parents is good for you. Very annoying.

Anyways sorry for derailing the thread.

I'm in the UK... I'm guessing you're in the US?

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05-04-2014, 01:50 PM
RE: Do you think everyone should be allowed to have kids?
(05-04-2014 01:48 PM)Paranoidsam Wrote:  
(05-04-2014 01:46 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  I don't where over here is, but here I am it's not really a strictness issue either. It's case workers having way too many kids each, lack of government funding, and this ridiculous belief that mothers have this magical love connection with their children. These stupid programs like bring home families (I think that's what it's called) where they try to put kids back with their abusive parents because they think being with your biological parents is good for you. Very annoying.

Anyways sorry for derailing the thread.

I'm in the UK... I'm guessing you're in the US?
Yea Tongue
When you said over here I knew you weren't in the US. We never say over here, because we always assume everyone is American. It's just because the arrogance is bread into us. We can't help it. Tongue lmao

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05-04-2014, 02:28 PM
RE: Do you think everyone should be allowed to have kids?
(05-04-2014 12:25 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  This is the Benevolent Dictator problem. Who gets to decide and why? What are the criteria for the decision? How do the people making the decisions enforce them? How can one preemptively know who will be a good parent and who will be a bad parent? Intelligence alone is not a sign of a good parent and lack of education does not make a bad parent.

Yes there probably are some people who should not be allowed to have kids but really until they do something that shows their unfitness there is no way to both hold up civil liberty and enforce this.

Yeah, that s how things currently stand. But it doesnt need to be this way. For example for driving licence they will not say that everyone should be allowed to drive until they commit a car accident.
Unless you prove you re a decent driver in some kind of test, you are not allowed to drive a car. And if you re blind you will never be allowed to drive a car. In principle it could be the same with having children.

(05-04-2014 12:44 PM)Paranoidsam Wrote:  
(05-04-2014 12:33 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  Should everyone have the right to have children? No
Do I think anyone should be entrusted with the job of deciding who gets to have children and who doesn't? Absolutely not.

Now if you ask me if I think the government should be more strict with parents who have proven themselves to be the scum if the earth. Hell yes!

Trouble is, by the time a parent has shown they're unfit to raise children, the damage is done.

We've had a string of shocking cases of neglect and abuse over the past few years...

This was one of the worst... http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mick_Philpott
Another trouble is by the time children are already born no one other than parents really wants to take care of them, because raising children is not cheap. Moreover changing home all the time isnt that good for kids either. So making some kind of selection among parents candidates could be simpler and beneficial.

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05-04-2014, 02:57 PM
RE: Do you think everyone should be allowed to have kids?
(05-04-2014 02:28 PM)Troll Wrote:  
(05-04-2014 12:25 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  This is the Benevolent Dictator problem. Who gets to decide and why? What are the criteria for the decision? How do the people making the decisions enforce them? How can one preemptively know who will be a good parent and who will be a bad parent? Intelligence alone is not a sign of a good parent and lack of education does not make a bad parent.

Yes there probably are some people who should not be allowed to have kids but really until they do something that shows their unfitness there is no way to both hold up civil liberty and enforce this.

Yeah, that s how things currently stand. But it doesnt need to be this way. For example for driving licence they will not say that everyone should be allowed to drive until they commit a car accident.
Unless you prove you re a decent driver in some kind of test, you are not allowed to drive a car. And if you re blind you will never be allowed to drive a car. In principle it could be the same with having children.
In principle sure, but in reality it's a very dangerous slippery slope of human rights violations.

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05-04-2014, 06:49 PM
RE: Do you think everyone should be allowed to have kids?
Do I think everyone should be aloud? No.
Do I think it's realistic to put rules in place to prevent people from having children? No. Not in a western society where human rights are a thing anyway.

If you were to implement this what happens if someone has a child who isn't suppose too? Nothing good can come out of punishing that person. It harms them and it harms that baby.
You could argue that punishment will prevent people who aren't aloud to have babies from having babies, but it wont. This isn't like weed where some people agree it should be banned and other agree it shouldn't be. That you can get away with banning. Having babies is something everyone agrees people have the right to do and so you're gonna get blatant ignoring of any rules you put in place and huge protests.

The only viable way to do this would be some sort of extreme authoritarian government with police state like crack down on public disobedience for which having babies would be the least of your concerns.

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05-04-2014, 07:28 PM
RE: Do you think everyone should be allowed to have kids?
(05-04-2014 06:49 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Do I think everyone should be aloud? No.
Do I think it's realistic to put rules in place to prevent people from having children? No. Not in a western society where human rights are a thing anyway.

If you were to implement this what happens if someone has a child who isn't suppose too? Nothing good can come out of punishing that person. It harms them and it harms that baby.
You could argue that punishment will prevent people who aren't aloud to have babies from having babies, but it wont. This isn't like weed where some people agree it should be banned and other agree it shouldn't be. That you can get away with banning. Having babies is something everyone agrees people have the right to do and so you're gonna get blatant ignoring of any rules you put in place and huge protests.

The only viable way to do this would be some sort of extreme authoritarian government with police state like crack down on public disobedience for which having babies would be the least of your concerns.

China's on child policy is a real-world case. Results and consequences are documented and can be studied.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-child_policy
http://www.smh.com.au/world/chinese-pare...zqouh.html

Tip of iceberg.

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05-04-2014, 08:33 PM
RE: Do you think everyone should be allowed to have kids?
Personally, I think that people who are so religious that they homeschool their children the entire 12 years they are supposed to be in school just to brainwash them even more into christianity shouldn't be allowed to homeschool their children. And if they have a history of preaching hatred and promote the violation of human rights (like stoning gay people, that sort of stuff) they shouldn't be allowed to have children and just have another virus as to which they spread their disease of bigotry and hatred. As for preventing someone from having children, there isn't really any way to successfully do that, but if they do have children they can be taken away and given to loving foster parents who don't preach hatred.
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05-04-2014, 09:51 PM
RE: Do you think everyone should be allowed to have kids?
I'm more worried about the size of families

Honestly in an ideal world, I'd like to see size limits on families. 3-4 children tops.


20 kids and counting is ridiculous and irresponsible.
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