Do you think there are advanced alien races out there similar to ours?
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02-05-2012, 06:16 PM
RE: Do you think there are advanced alien races out there similar to ours?
(02-05-2012 04:17 PM)kim Wrote:  
(02-05-2012 03:38 PM)Curlzer Wrote:  It is very likely that we are not alone in the cosmos and we have already discovered bacteria on mars. But how likey do you think it is that there are other intelligent civilisations out there more or less advanced than us.
What? You never read Horton Hears A Who? Dodgy


How do we know bacteria isn't intelligent? There seems to be a lot of variety and each seem able to spread and multiply pretty good; looks like they want to survive. Just because we are unable to communicate with something, doesn't mean it's not a sentient being. Not that I'm advocating communicating with bacteria, but I often wonder what they must make of us. Shocking
_________
You know, there are times when I consider humans to be a virus. Not always, just sometimes... when they do stupid shit.
Shy
I tend to agree Kim. We are the only species on the planet that isn't homeostatic (maintains a natural equilibrium) and the only other entity, that I'm aware of, that behaves like this is the virus Ohmy Naughty humans!

Humankind Dodgy (a total misnomer)
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02-05-2012, 08:56 PM
RE: Do you think there are advanced alien races out there similar to ours?
The Hubble telescope pointed to a dark region in space and took images over several days to see what would turn up.
10,000 galaxies appeared.
The probability that life like us exists is a certainty many times over.
The probability that no life exists but us is a probability of zero.
The probability that we will meet any of them is very unlikely.

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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03-05-2012, 02:13 AM
RE: Do you think there are advanced alien races out there similar to ours?
(02-05-2012 04:09 PM)germanyt Wrote:  
(02-05-2012 03:56 PM)NoahsFarce Wrote:  That is a reference that suffices as it was written by Carl Sagan.

To suggest that we are the only intelligent life out there is supremely arrogant.

At most, you should only consider that we could be the first as everything needs a first. I personally don't think we are the first, but it's very plausible.

I have a problem with the common Hollywood depiction of aliens. We look like no other species on this planet. The closest are primates, but even they aren't bi-pedal. What are the chances aliens look like us?
I saw a great documentary one time on PBS or Discovery that examined what species from other planets would look like. It created a dozen or so hypothetical planets with varying properties. Some were much larger than Earth, some smaller. Some with thick atmospheres and some with thin. They tried to determine what the creatures there would look like. Heavy gravity planets would have organism with legs located directly underneath their bodies to support themselves, lower gravity would have more reptile like leg structure. You get the idea. It was a really intersting show. I can't remember the name though.
I watched a similar documentary a few years back. I can't remember it perfectly, but I do distinctly remember their conclusion was that our imagined sci-fi personification of extraterrestrials likely wouldn't be off by much. There reasoning was that you needed a big brain to advance to the point of learning tools, and if your body had extra eyes, or legs, etc... then it would adversely affect the intelligent of the animal. So essentially they were saying, 2 eyes, 2 legs, and 2 arms was an ideal configuration for an animal to become sentient.
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03-05-2012, 06:21 AM (This post was last modified: 03-05-2012 06:39 AM by NoahsFarce.)
RE: Do you think there are advanced alien races out there similar to ours?
(02-05-2012 05:21 PM)Debzilla Wrote:  Do you think there are advanced alien races out there similar to ours?
~I can't imagine they would be very generous or compassionate...
Sooooo if we are lucky, no.
While I won't argue that some almost definitely have to be what we define as "evil", the likelihood of that being the majority case is minute. This is because a race that is malicious in that type of manner is more likely to blow themselves up before ever being able to cross the universe.

The ones that do reach that capability must have a very strong bond with each other in order not to be malicious towards themselves. Look at our race. We have nukes pointed at each other. That's not a very good way to preserve our species.

My guess is that races that are able to become galactic travelers transcended primitive acts like war.

But this is supposing that their civilization took time to evolve and develop this technology. It's very possible that there are races out there that just have superbly powerful intellects and didn't require as much time to invent this type of technology. This is the type I think might be malicious.

So I'd wager a bet that the malicious interstellar travelers are a younger race.
(03-05-2012 02:13 AM)mysticjbyrd Wrote:  
(02-05-2012 04:09 PM)germanyt Wrote:  I saw a great documentary one time on PBS or Discovery that examined what species from other planets would look like. It created a dozen or so hypothetical planets with varying properties. Some were much larger than Earth, some smaller. Some with thick atmospheres and some with thin. They tried to determine what the creatures there would look like. Heavy gravity planets would have organism with legs located directly underneath their bodies to support themselves, lower gravity would have more reptile like leg structure. You get the idea. It was a really intersting show. I can't remember the name though.
I watched a similar documentary a few years back. I can't remember it perfectly, but I do distinctly remember their conclusion was that our imagined sci-fi personification of extraterrestrials likely wouldn't be off by much. There reasoning was that you needed a big brain to advance to the point of learning tools, and if your body had extra eyes, or legs, etc... then it would adversely affect the intelligent of the animal. So essentially they were saying, 2 eyes, 2 legs, and 2 arms was an ideal configuration for an animal to become sentient.
The problem with this school of thought is that it is very likely we would say the same thing if we had say 3 arms. We would say having 3 arms is the ideal configuration. Humans like to think of themselves as so vastly more intelligent than other animals on this planet. Just think though, we are only 2% different from our closest primate relative. This is the difference between the Hubble and a ant catching stick. So imagine a race 2% different from us in the other direction.

In other words, to suppose that humans have the ideal configuration is supremely arrogant.

Another problem is that we actually don't have the ideal configuration. Walking upright is inefficient. Humans are writhe with back and knee problems because of this. Our two eyes are broken. We only see a very small spectrum of light. Many of us require corrective lenses (and no, this isn't because of TV). The image is upside down which forces our brain to make the flip.

My idea of an efficient being is a blob-like one. The amount of gravity doesn't matter when you're a blob. You conform to whatever your surrounding is. You have no bones that can break or restrict your movement. You can't be squished, punched, kicked, etc... Car crash? No problem when you're a blob.

Also, the big brain idea is refutable. Examine the cuddlefish and species of octopi. They are vastly more intelligent than we initially imagined. What type of processing power do you think it takes for cuddlefish to instantly change its color and color pattern at will? They touch your hand and in an instant turn into your skin tone. It's crazy amazing.

“We are all connected; To each other, biologically. To the earth, chemically. To the rest of the universe atomically.”

-Neil deGrasse Tyson
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03-05-2012, 09:22 AM
RE: Do you think there are advanced alien races out there similar to ours?
(03-05-2012 06:21 AM)NoahsFarce Wrote:  
(02-05-2012 05:21 PM)Debzilla Wrote:  Do you think there are advanced alien races out there similar to ours?
~I can't imagine they would be very generous or compassionate...
Sooooo if we are lucky, no.
While I won't argue that some almost definitely have to be what we define as "evil", the likelihood of that being the majority case is minute. This is because a race that is malicious in that type of manner is more likely to blow themselves up before ever being able to cross the universe.

The ones that do reach that capability must have a very strong bond with each other in order not to be malicious towards themselves. Look at our race. We have nukes pointed at each other. That's not a very good way to preserve our species.

My guess is that races that are able to become galactic travelers transcended primitive acts like war.

But this is supposing that their civilization took time to evolve and develop this technology. It's very possible that there are races out there that just have superbly powerful intellects and didn't require as much time to invent this type of technology. This is the type I think might be malicious.

So I'd wager a bet that the malicious interstellar travelers are a younger race.
(03-05-2012 02:13 AM)mysticjbyrd Wrote:  I watched a similar documentary a few years back. I can't remember it perfectly, but I do distinctly remember their conclusion was that our imagined sci-fi personification of extraterrestrials likely wouldn't be off by much. There reasoning was that you needed a big brain to advance to the point of learning tools, and if your body had extra eyes, or legs, etc... then it would adversely affect the intelligent of the animal. So essentially they were saying, 2 eyes, 2 legs, and 2 arms was an ideal configuration for an animal to become sentient.
The problem with this school of thought is that it is very likely we would say the same thing if we had say 3 arms. We would say having 3 arms is the ideal configuration. Humans like to think of themselves as so vastly more intelligent than other animals on this planet. Just think though, we are only 2% different from our closest primate relative. This is the difference between the Hubble and a ant catching stick. So imagine a race 2% different from us in the other direction.

In other words, to suppose that humans have the ideal configuration is supremely arrogant.

Another problem is that we actually don't have the ideal configuration. Walking upright is inefficient. Humans are writhe with back and knee problems because of this. Our two eyes are broken. We only see a very small spectrum of light. Many of us require corrective lenses (and no, this isn't because of TV). The image is upside down which forces our brain to make the flip.

My idea of an efficient being is a blob-like one. The amount of gravity doesn't matter when you're a blob. You conform to whatever your surrounding is. You have no bones that can break or restrict your movement. You can't be squished, punched, kicked, etc... Car crash? No problem when you're a blob.

Also, the big brain idea is refutable. Examine the cuddlefish and species of octopi. They are vastly more intelligent than we initially imagined. What type of processing power do you think it takes for cuddlefish to instantly change its color and color pattern at will? They touch your hand and in an instant turn into your skin tone. It's crazy amazing.
An ideal configuration to develop a brain capable of becoming sentient revolves around keeping extremities to a minimum.
Our forms seems to be the most efficient at forming large brains capable of critical thinking; Health is not a related issue at all.
Size is important to a degree, but whats more important is what % of the brain is being used and for what.
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03-05-2012, 09:36 AM
RE: Do you think there are advanced alien races out there similar to ours?
The reason we would say that having three arms would be ideal, were we to have three arms, is because it would have previously worked. Thus it would definitely appear ideal. Maybe the reason we have two arms is because it is ideal.

Anyways I think it's likely that life exists outside of our solar system. I find it just as unlikely that we are the only intelligent species in the universe (potentially universes) as I do that the god from the bible exists. It's not impossible, but it sure is unlikely given the facts.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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03-05-2012, 09:49 AM
RE: Do you think there are advanced alien races out there similar to ours?
(03-05-2012 09:22 AM)mysticjbyrd Wrote:  
(03-05-2012 06:21 AM)NoahsFarce Wrote:  While I won't argue that some almost definitely have to be what we define as "evil", the likelihood of that being the majority case is minute. This is because a race that is malicious in that type of manner is more likely to blow themselves up before ever being able to cross the universe.

The ones that do reach that capability must have a very strong bond with each other in order not to be malicious towards themselves. Look at our race. We have nukes pointed at each other. That's not a very good way to preserve our species.

My guess is that races that are able to become galactic travelers transcended primitive acts like war.

But this is supposing that their civilization took time to evolve and develop this technology. It's very possible that there are races out there that just have superbly powerful intellects and didn't require as much time to invent this type of technology. This is the type I think might be malicious.

So I'd wager a bet that the malicious interstellar travelers are a younger race.
The problem with this school of thought is that it is very likely we would say the same thing if we had say 3 arms. We would say having 3 arms is the ideal configuration. Humans like to think of themselves as so vastly more intelligent than other animals on this planet. Just think though, we are only 2% different from our closest primate relative. This is the difference between the Hubble and a ant catching stick. So imagine a race 2% different from us in the other direction.

In other words, to suppose that humans have the ideal configuration is supremely arrogant.

Another problem is that we actually don't have the ideal configuration. Walking upright is inefficient. Humans are writhe with back and knee problems because of this. Our two eyes are broken. We only see a very small spectrum of light. Many of us require corrective lenses (and no, this isn't because of TV). The image is upside down which forces our brain to make the flip.

My idea of an efficient being is a blob-like one. The amount of gravity doesn't matter when you're a blob. You conform to whatever your surrounding is. You have no bones that can break or restrict your movement. You can't be squished, punched, kicked, etc... Car crash? No problem when you're a blob.

Also, the big brain idea is refutable. Examine the cuddlefish and species of octopi. They are vastly more intelligent than we initially imagined. What type of processing power do you think it takes for cuddlefish to instantly change its color and color pattern at will? They touch your hand and in an instant turn into your skin tone. It's crazy amazing.
An ideal configuration to develop a brain capable of becoming sentient revolves around keeping extremities to a minimum.
Our forms seems to be the most efficient at forming large brains capable of critical thinking; Health is not a related issue at all.
Size is important to a degree, but whats more important is what % of the brain is being used and for what.
I do think it's safe to assume that any intelligent beings wouldn't be significantly larger than us in stature. As you grow larger it requires more brain activity devoted to things like breathing, heart rate, etc. We do seem to be at least the ideal size for developing into an intelligent civilization.

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

-Mark Twain
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03-05-2012, 09:50 AM
RE: Do you think there are advanced alien races out there similar to ours?
(03-05-2012 09:22 AM)mysticjbyrd Wrote:  
(03-05-2012 06:21 AM)NoahsFarce Wrote:  While I won't argue that some almost definitely have to be what we define as "evil", the likelihood of that being the majority case is minute. This is because a race that is malicious in that type of manner is more likely to blow themselves up before ever being able to cross the universe.

The ones that do reach that capability must have a very strong bond with each other in order not to be malicious towards themselves. Look at our race. We have nukes pointed at each other. That's not a very good way to preserve our species.

My guess is that races that are able to become galactic travelers transcended primitive acts like war.

But this is supposing that their civilization took time to evolve and develop this technology. It's very possible that there are races out there that just have superbly powerful intellects and didn't require as much time to invent this type of technology. This is the type I think might be malicious.

So I'd wager a bet that the malicious interstellar travelers are a younger race.
The problem with this school of thought is that it is very likely we would say the same thing if we had say 3 arms. We would say having 3 arms is the ideal configuration. Humans like to think of themselves as so vastly more intelligent than other animals on this planet. Just think though, we are only 2% different from our closest primate relative. This is the difference between the Hubble and a ant catching stick. So imagine a race 2% different from us in the other direction.

In other words, to suppose that humans have the ideal configuration is supremely arrogant.

Another problem is that we actually don't have the ideal configuration. Walking upright is inefficient. Humans are writhe with back and knee problems because of this. Our two eyes are broken. We only see a very small spectrum of light. Many of us require corrective lenses (and no, this isn't because of TV). The image is upside down which forces our brain to make the flip.

My idea of an efficient being is a blob-like one. The amount of gravity doesn't matter when you're a blob. You conform to whatever your surrounding is. You have no bones that can break or restrict your movement. You can't be squished, punched, kicked, etc... Car crash? No problem when you're a blob.

Also, the big brain idea is refutable. Examine the cuddlefish and species of octopi. They are vastly more intelligent than we initially imagined. What type of processing power do you think it takes for cuddlefish to instantly change its color and color pattern at will? They touch your hand and in an instant turn into your skin tone. It's crazy amazing.
An ideal configuration to develop a brain capable of becoming sentient revolves around keeping extremities to a minimum.
Our forms seems to be the most efficient at forming large brains capable of critical thinking; Health is not a related issue at all.
Size is important to a degree, but whats more important is what % of the brain is being used and for what.
But I brought up the example of cuddlefish. They are an enigmatic creature. Shown to have personalities. They are very clever. There are studies pointing to the theory that cuddlefish can even learn via observation. These are "intelligent" traits. Yet, they look nothing like us. They do not have 2 arms and 2 legs. Though they do live in the sea so different environment for sure.

I'm just saying, we happened to thrive the way we did. I can just as easily imagine the cuddlefish evolving to be the most intelligent. To me, the chances are still very slim that most intelligent life-forms will look anything like us. I do think some very well might. I just don't think this will be the majority case.

By the way, we would likely be a different shape if we had a much different gravity.

“We are all connected; To each other, biologically. To the earth, chemically. To the rest of the universe atomically.”

-Neil deGrasse Tyson
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03-05-2012, 09:55 AM
RE: Do you think there are advanced alien races out there similar to ours?
(03-05-2012 09:50 AM)NoahsFarce Wrote:  
(03-05-2012 09:22 AM)mysticjbyrd Wrote:  An ideal configuration to develop a brain capable of becoming sentient revolves around keeping extremities to a minimum.
Our forms seems to be the most efficient at forming large brains capable of critical thinking; Health is not a related issue at all.
Size is important to a degree, but whats more important is what % of the brain is being used and for what.
But I brought up the example of cuddlefish. They are an enigmatic creature. Shown to have personalities. They are very clever. There are studies pointing to the theory that cuddlefish can even learn via observation. These are "intelligent" traits. Yet, they look nothing like us. They do not have 2 arms and 2 legs. Though they do live in the sea so different environment for sure.

I'm just saying, we happened to thrive the way we did. I can just as easily imagine the cuddlefish evolving to be the most intelligent. To me, the chances are still very slim that most intelligent life-forms will look anything like us. I do think some very well might. I just don't think this will be the majority case.

By the way, we would likely be a different shape if we had a much different gravity.
But a cuddlefish cannot develop a radio telescope. I'd expect an alien race to appear much like in the movie The Arrival. Roughly the same size and build as us but with very differnt skin and facial features and dog or horse like knee joints for more efficient foot travel.

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

-Mark Twain
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03-05-2012, 09:55 AM
RE: Do you think there are advanced alien races out there similar to ours?
Different shape yes, and strength, and height, and WHY. But, it would be very difficult for another species like a fish to create anything without hands and fingers and thumbs... Their abilities don't help their intelligence beyond what is necessary for them in their environment. For them to evolve in a manner more suitable for tool development they would have to have their environment either altered or changed entirely.
Then they would likely evolve in a way fitting for survival in this new environment. It's happened before. With us. Except for the ones god made.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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