Do you think this is unethical?
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04-08-2012, 04:31 PM
RE: Do you think this is unethical?
(04-08-2012 04:26 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  Who defines the right circumstances?

Me. Big Grin

It's wrong when anyone else does it.

Consider the moaning that goes on at the moment about how some people are filthy rich and others are dirt poor. Picture a situation where a small elite group controls the vast majority of the resources, and doesn't want to share. Now at some point in the past somehow some concept of ownership was defined which says "if that guy controls some resources then using them without his permission is stealing and therefore wrong"...

Now the small elite group can just use the fact that they own these resources to keep the larger poor group under their control.

If one of the poor, under these circumstances, steals, can you still sya that it is wrong?
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04-08-2012, 04:31 PM
RE: Do you think this is unethical?
(04-08-2012 04:26 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(04-08-2012 04:22 PM)morondog Wrote:  I believe that "stealing is wrong" is too strong a statement... under the right circumstances.

On the other hand when I'm cackling on top of my throne of skulls I do sometimes allow myself to think that the ends justify the means...

Who defines the right circumstances?

Society? Each one of us? Consensus?

The "starving man steals crust of bread" or "desperate mother steals milk for starving baby" examples survive precisely because they are counterexamples to the stealing is always wrong rule.

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04-08-2012, 04:35 PM
RE: Do you think this is unethical?
(04-08-2012 03:29 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(04-08-2012 02:43 PM)Humakt Wrote:  You dont need it proved or even argued, if you take that which is not yours but someone elses you are in the wrong, simples.

If I have lots of resources and there are starving people on my doorstep and one steals from me, is he wrong? Am *I* not rather wrong? Sorry for the over the top illustration...

No problems, examples of extremes are often valid to highlight issues.

To answer your question, is the starving man wrong, to quote Sheldon Cooper "that which is nessecary, is legal" to quote the traffic court judge,"Im not ignoring the law, Im ignoring you."

Morality and ethics are "absolutes" or standards with definative bountries is a little closer to my meaning. The startving man is wrong, justified but wrong. You who are hoarding an excess of resourses whilst your niebour starves are an asshole, possably depending on the standards used even unethical, but none the less you have not nessecarily done something wrong in aquiring your excess, you dont state how this disparity in wealth has come about, I'll refrain from saying the starvng man is lazy, if you'll refrain from saying the wealthy man is evil. Having aquired your wealth you have a right to the expectation that your society will help you safe guard it. Of course, the starving man should also have an expectation that his society will look after him. If the man is starving whilst others in the society prosper this is more an indication that the state is broken and not fit for purpose, than an indication that the wealthy man is to blame. However, states that allow these states of affairs to persist rarely survive and in the upcoming social upheaval the rich guys either gonna have to move to a more secure neibourhood or he'll more than likely be killed for his boots.

As your example is in extremis, by nessecity my continuation of the disscusion is also in extremis, please do me the courtosy of not using the extremes you brought us to, to piss on my points Smile.

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04-08-2012, 04:40 PM
RE: Do you think this is unethical?
(04-08-2012 04:35 PM)Humakt Wrote:  As your example is in extremis, by nessecity my continuation of the disscusion is also in extremis, please do me the courtosy of not using the extremes you brought us to, to piss on my points Smile.

Nah I think your answer is eminently satisfying... I was aware of the extreme nature of the example, I just couldn't think of a more reasonable one Tongue
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04-08-2012, 05:00 PM
RE: Do you think this is unethical?
(04-08-2012 11:33 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(04-08-2012 10:12 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  I am saying that in technicality, you are not stealing anything. You are not robbing anything from anyone.

Yes, you are. It's called intellectual property.

The problem is that, if we are talking about online piracy, everything that you "steal" is a copy of a file or program. I am not supporting it or attempting to justify it, but in all technicalities you are not stealing anything.

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04-08-2012, 05:19 PM
RE: Do you think this is unethical?
(04-08-2012 05:00 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(04-08-2012 11:33 AM)Chas Wrote:  Yes, you are. It's called intellectual property.

The problem is that, if we are talking about online piracy, everything that you "steal" is a copy of a file or program. I am not supporting it or attempting to justify it, but in all technicalities you are not stealing anything.

Wrong. Just plain wrong. You are stealing intellectual property. It's like plagiarism. Is plagiarism OK?

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04-08-2012, 06:36 PM (This post was last modified: 04-08-2012 06:40 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Do you think this is unethical?
(04-08-2012 05:19 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(04-08-2012 05:00 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  The problem is that, if we are talking about online piracy, everything that you "steal" is a copy of a file or program. I am not supporting it or attempting to justify it, but in all technicalities you are not stealing anything.

Wrong. Just plain wrong. You are stealing intellectual property. It's like plagiarism. Is plagiarism OK?

No that's not right. Plagiarism is misrepresenting another's work as your own. wrt intellectual property, there is a large contingency in the programming community which supports open-source software. Consequently there's like 0% plagiarism. Dude's freely giving me his code means I don't even feel a temptation to misrepresent it as my own. In my job when Defense contractors try to pull the IP card on me I point out to them that I am bound by the FAR to protect their IP or risk my own livelihood. If they're still not willing to share their algorithms with me then my bullshit sensors go off and I think they're using IP as a smokescreen to cover the fact that the shit in the open-source community is better than what they're trying to sell to hapless taxpayers.

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04-08-2012, 07:26 PM
RE: Do you think this is unethical?
(04-08-2012 06:36 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(04-08-2012 05:19 PM)Chas Wrote:  Wrong. Just plain wrong. You are stealing intellectual property. It's like plagiarism. Is plagiarism OK?

No that's not right. Plagiarism is misrepresenting another's work as your own. wrt intellectual property, there is a large contingency in the programming community which supports open-source software. Consequently there's like 0% plagiarism. Dude's freely giving me his code means I don't even feel a temptation to misrepresent it as my own. In my job when Defense contractors try to pull the IP card on me I point out to them that I am bound by the FAR to protect their IP or risk my own livelihood. If they're still not willing to share their algorithms with me then my bullshit sensors go off and I think they're using IP as a smokescreen to cover the fact that the shit in the open-source community is better than what they're trying to sell to hapless taxpayers.

Completely off-track. The open source community agrees at the outset that the work is freely shared. Prior agreement.

If the open source stuff is better, use it. Stealing someone's proprietary software is illegal.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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04-08-2012, 08:28 PM (This post was last modified: 04-08-2012 09:11 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Do you think this is unethical?
(04-08-2012 07:26 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(04-08-2012 06:36 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  No that's not right. Plagiarism is misrepresenting another's work as your own. wrt intellectual property, there is a large contingency in the programming community which supports open-source software. Consequently there's like 0% plagiarism. Dude's freely giving me his code means I don't even feel a temptation to misrepresent it as my own. In my job when Defense contractors try to pull the IP card on me I point out to them that I am bound by the FAR to protect their IP or risk my own livelihood. If they're still not willing to share their algorithms with me then my bullshit sensors go off and I think they're using IP as a smokescreen to cover the fact that the shit in the open-source community is better than what they're trying to sell to hapless taxpayers.

Completely off-track. The open source community agrees at the outset that the work is freely shared. Prior agreement.

If the open source stuff is better, use it. Stealing someone's proprietary software is illegal.

I beg to differ, brotherman, it was you that went off-track when you intimated that viewing copyrighted material without the author's permission was akin to plagiarism. It clearly is not.

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04-08-2012, 08:49 PM
RE: Do you think this is unethical?
(04-08-2012 05:19 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(04-08-2012 05:00 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  The problem is that, if we are talking about online piracy, everything that you "steal" is a copy of a file or program. I am not supporting it or attempting to justify it, but in all technicalities you are not stealing anything.

Wrong. Just plain wrong. You are stealing intellectual property. It's like plagiarism. Is plagiarism OK?

It is not like plagiarism at all. And no, of course it isn't. Again, you are under the assumption that I think piracy is acceptable.

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