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21-08-2015, 03:03 PM
RE: Do you?
At what point does raising kids in fundamentalist Islam become child abuse?

I would argue that forcing fundamentalist Islam on a child is child abuse. We don't put up with other types of child abuse do we? So why do we allow such psychological abuse?

Of course being a moral nihilist, I don't think there's any right or wrong of the matter, but do what you want. I think it's silly to think we ought to leave people to their own devices. If parents think beating their kids everyday is the best way to raise kids, we don't just leave them to their own devices, so really the question becomes, where do we draw the line?
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21-08-2015, 03:36 PM
RE: Do you?
(21-08-2015 03:03 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  At what point does raising kids in fundamentalist Islam become child abuse?

Or fundamentalist Christianity or Judaism or Mormonism. Or any de-humanizing credo.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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21-08-2015, 03:39 PM
RE: Do you?
(21-08-2015 03:36 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(21-08-2015 03:03 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  At what point does raising kids in fundamentalist Islam become child abuse?

Or fundamentalist Christianity or Judaism or Mormonism. Or any de-humanizing credo.

Yes.Thumbsup
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21-08-2015, 05:47 PM
RE: Do you?
I'm not interested in "converting" anyone. I won't bring it up if they don't. I just don't want their religion forced on me.
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21-08-2015, 06:16 PM
RE: Do you?
My family has been really cool and supportive about my atheism. They have treated me with respect and as such I extend the same to them.

I never confront anyone unless they confront me. I never go after people unless they initiate the exchange and try to convert me after being told that I'm not interested. Being confrontational isn't helpful in dispelling the God belief, and if they truly are looking for truth the information is out there. If they are happy in their beliefs and are not hurting or imposing on anyone as a result of those beliefs I won't bother them.
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21-08-2015, 06:23 PM
RE: Do you?
(21-08-2015 10:36 AM)Typho2k Wrote:  Some people I know who are christian, are beginning to become old and are either suffering from physical things or mental thing like depression, and I'm scared they would go into a really dark place if someone took god from them. So as an atheist, I don't have the heart to even try convert them even though I dislike religion.

So to the question: Are there times when you think: "Maybe it's just for the best to let that person live in a bubble and be happy" or are you a merciless, militant atheist who think it's the right thing to take their teddybear away? Big Grin

We have talked about this before and pretty much the consensus has been that there's is a time and place to just let it go. Someone who is clinging to the only hope they have isn't who I want to cause any more anguish. This is difficult when their hope isn't real but why kick someone when they are down?

I let them keep their fairy godfather. Whatever it takes to get them through. But I don't want to hear preaching when it's me that's facing an issue. The JWs found that out when they showed up between my breast cancer diagnosis and my mastectomies. I wanted to deal with reality. Others want/need to deal with fantasy.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

We're all mad here. The Cheshire Cat
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21-08-2015, 06:30 PM
RE: Do you?
As long as no one is hurting themselves or others through their religion or because of their religion, I don't really try to talk anyone out of their beliefs. If someone wishes to debate me, we can have a healthy (hopefully fruitful) discussion, but if someone were suffering and their religion was pacifying them...who am I to tell them to let it go?

Be true to yourself. Heart
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21-08-2015, 08:42 PM
RE: Do you?
What if their teddy bear is stuffed with asbestos fibers?

My priorities are the haters and the Christians already thinking about giving up their teddy bears. Deciding whether to take away teddy bears on my own can wait until I'm done taking away chainsaws. Which... probably won't happen in my lifetime.
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21-08-2015, 10:41 PM
RE: Do you?
Many of us reached our atheism via some form of disillusion with theism, and the severity of the disillusion can be quite painful, as well as take months or years to get through. There's no predicting what the disillusionment will be, nor when it will occur; for the ones lucky enough to have it happen in youth, the resilience of youth keeps the travail from being crippling or lethal (and youth hasn't had time for religious belief to harden and spread roots into all the reaches of the psyche). But disillusionment to one who's invested a full human lifetime in belief can be as devastating as a disease.

The risk, therefore, for someone religious and old enough that we all think taking away the teddy bear more harmful then helpful, is that the teddy bear could come unglued by some disillusioning event or epiphany or whatever totally unforeseen, and if we've made false assurances that the teddy bear was OK, the emotional devastation compounded by feelings of betrayal could very well prove irrecoverable.

Thus I think humoring belief for the sake of perceived serenity is an error. It perpetuates a lie, a lie that at its core demeans human dignity, and upholding such a slander perpetuates pain rather than abates it.
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22-08-2015, 04:35 AM
RE: Do you?
(21-08-2015 11:26 AM)julep Wrote:  I never try to convert anyone. Had enough of that when I was forced to witness as a Christian in my teens.

It doesn't bother me when people use the hope of heaven to help them fear aging or dying less. I've met some very depressed and angry older Christians, though; not everybody's able to take comfort from their beliefs.

"I've met some very depressed and angry older Christians, though"

Oh yes. I have 20 years experience as a GP. I have seen the psychological damage caused by Christianity many, many times. I can almost pick it when they break down in tears...the next sentence will be a confession about the damage they have suffered due to religion.

As Christopher used to say...religion poisons everything.

Every facet of people's autonomy is degraded by religion...their sense of self, their sexuality, their confidence in themselves, and their trust in others.

We somehow, and I'm not sure how, have to protect the children from religion.
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