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22-08-2015, 04:45 AM
RE: Do you?
(21-08-2015 10:41 PM)Airportkid Wrote:  Many of us reached our atheism via some form of disillusion with theism, and the severity of the disillusion can be quite painful, as well as take months or years to get through. There's no predicting what the disillusionment will be, nor when it will occur; for the ones lucky enough to have it happen in youth, the resilience of youth keeps the travail from being crippling or lethal (and youth hasn't had time for religious belief to harden and spread roots into all the reaches of the psyche). But disillusionment to one who's invested a full human lifetime in belief can be as devastating as a disease.

The risk, therefore, for someone religious and old enough that we all think taking away the teddy bear more harmful then helpful, is that the teddy bear could come unglued by some disillusioning event or epiphany or whatever totally unforeseen, and if we've made false assurances that the teddy bear was OK, the emotional devastation compounded by feelings of betrayal could very well prove irrecoverable.

Thus I think humoring belief for the sake of perceived serenity is an error. It perpetuates a lie, a lie that at its core demeans human dignity, and upholding such a slander perpetuates pain rather than abates it.

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22-08-2015, 06:33 AM
RE: Do you?
(21-08-2015 10:41 PM)Airportkid Wrote:  Many of us reached our atheism via some form of disillusion with theism, and the severity of the disillusion can be quite painful, as well as take months or years to get through. There's no predicting what the disillusionment will be, nor when it will occur; for the ones lucky enough to have it happen in youth, the resilience of youth keeps the travail from being crippling or lethal (and youth hasn't had time for religious belief to harden and spread roots into all the reaches of the psyche). But disillusionment to one who's invested a full human lifetime in belief can be as devastating as a disease.

The risk, therefore, for someone religious and old enough that we all think taking away the teddy bear more harmful then helpful, is that the teddy bear could come unglued by some disillusioning event or epiphany or whatever totally unforeseen, and if we've made false assurances that the teddy bear was OK, the emotional devastation compounded by feelings of betrayal could very well prove irrecoverable.

Thus I think humoring belief for the sake of perceived serenity is an error. It perpetuates a lie, a lie that at its core demeans human dignity, and upholding such a slander perpetuates pain rather than abates it.

Your point is well taken but I think there's a difference between telling them the teddy bear is OK and just not taking the teddy bear away. It's possible to be supportive of the person without directly addressing the bear at all. Somebody in extremis isn't likely to be open to a rational discussion of why their life has been based on a lie and attacking it when they are vulnerable could push them further into it.

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22-08-2015, 06:44 AM
RE: Do you?
As long as they don't do any of the things ( you know what they are ) That piss us off and do damage to the world around them and us....I don't really care..

Let them have their teddy bear....as long as they let me keep my -my little pony pinkie pie cuddle pillow...I will let them have their teddy bear!


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22-08-2015, 06:52 AM
RE: Do you?
(22-08-2015 04:35 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  We somehow, and I'm not sure how, have to protect the children from religion.

The Roman Catholic Church used to burn people at the stake to save their eternal souls from Satan. Consider

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22-08-2015, 07:11 AM
RE: Do you?
(22-08-2015 06:52 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(22-08-2015 04:35 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  We somehow, and I'm not sure how, have to protect the children from religion.

The Roman Catholic Church used to burn people at the stake to save their eternal souls from Satan. Consider

You're suggesting we should turn those kids into steak to save their minds from religion?

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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22-08-2015, 07:21 AM
RE: Do you?
(22-08-2015 07:11 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(22-08-2015 06:52 AM)Chas Wrote:  The Roman Catholic Church used to burn people at the stake to save their eternal souls from Satan. Consider

You're suggesting we should turn those kids into steak to save their minds from religion?

Just sayin' that maybe those cardinals knew what they were doing. Evil_monster

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22-08-2015, 07:29 AM
RE: Do you?
(22-08-2015 07:11 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(22-08-2015 06:52 AM)Chas Wrote:  The Roman Catholic Church used to burn people at the stake to save their eternal souls from Satan. Consider

You're suggesting we should turn those kids into steak to save their minds from religion?

No, but I do think that, as horrified as I am by the indoctrination of children by their parents (and their parents' churches) into the insanity that often comprises the tenets of organized religion (what Sagan called "the demon-haunted world"), it's a worse horror to interfere with other people raising their children unless the harm rises to the level of clear emotional abuse.

Like raising them to be Dallas Cowboys fans, for instance... that has to stop.

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22-08-2015, 08:37 AM
RE: Do you?
(22-08-2015 07:29 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  unless the harm rises to the level of clear emotional abuse.

There's the rub. How does one tell? I would say that religion in my own estimation already clears that hurdle. *However* there are plenty of parents who think of it as nothing less that giving their kids their best chance in life. State interference with the same might even be justifiable *but* once you've set the precedent I think it's kinda easy to drift into state-sponsored brainwashing - maybe not immediately but there's a clear slippery slope right there. In the end the status quo gives us plenty of fucked up individuals to work with who nevertheless often manage to function as productive (if kooky) members of society, therefore on balance I think it better not to interfere (add to that that it's pretty much logistically impossible - no politician would dare to suggest such a thing, I think).

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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22-08-2015, 09:02 AM
RE: Do you?
(22-08-2015 08:37 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(22-08-2015 07:29 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  unless the harm rises to the level of clear emotional abuse.

There's the rub. How does one tell? I would say that religion in my own estimation already clears that hurdle. *However* there are plenty of parents who think of it as nothing less that giving their kids their best chance in life. State interference with the same might even be justifiable *but* once you've set the precedent I think it's kinda easy to drift into state-sponsored brainwashing - maybe not immediately but there's a clear slippery slope right there. In the end the status quo gives us plenty of fucked up individuals to work with who nevertheless often manage to function as productive (if kooky) members of society, therefore on balance I think it better not to interfere (add to that that it's pretty much logistically impossible - no politician would dare to suggest such a thing, I think).

I concur completely, Morondog. It is for that reason and that reason only that I think it's "worse" to interfere with the damage being done. Too many people in the USA treat state interference as if it's a good thing, right up to the moment it is used on them or theirs; I see it as the "nuclear option", doing at least, at LEAST as much harm as it potentially solves or claims to solve.

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22-08-2015, 09:29 AM
RE: Do you?
(22-08-2015 09:02 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Too many people in the USA treat state interference as if it's a good thing, right up to the moment it is used on them or theirs; I see it as the "nuclear option", doing at least, at LEAST as much harm as it potentially solves or claims to solve.

They should try living in a banana republic for a while. Gives you a real appreciation for the finer things in life like basic political rights and not having the government all up in your business.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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