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21-11-2013, 12:05 PM
RE: DOC'S SEMI-AUTOMATIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (PRYING GOD INTO YOUR COLD, DEAD HEART SINCE 2013)
(21-11-2013 08:21 AM)docskeptic Wrote:  
(21-11-2013 04:05 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Probably for the same reason they're all male.

Evolution,
You bring up a good point. All these miracle babies were prophesied about. This means that a body was "planned" for them in advance.

Let's take the case of Jesus as an example. His genetic makeup had to be handpicked and not left to random chance. If so, how did God decide what characteristics to pick? We know that he had to have picked at least a few. For example, we know that Jesus was a male of average height (the absence of comments to the contrary in the documents would suggest this). In addition, he probably had dark eyes and dark hair, although this is somewhat variable.

What other genetic features did God pick? What did he reject? For example, did Jesus have a genetic predisposition for diabetes mellitus? Or how about Huntington's chorea, which causes muscle incoordination, dementia, and death? Was Jesus prone to hypertension, hypercholesterolemia, addictions, premature coronary artery disease, colon cancer, etc., all of which are partly genetic in origin? If he had not been crucified what would he have died of? If he did inherit the tendencies to certain disease states, then what does it mean for us to have a flawed deity?

Jesus, then, had a decided advantage over the rest of us who make do with what the genetic lottery assigns us. We roll our dice and we take our chances; not so Jesus. If that be the case, how can he share in our humanity?

And how can it be said that he was able to sympathize with us (Heb. 4:15)? As a man, he was born with every physical and material advantage (let us not forget the gifts of gold and frankincense offered by the magi in Matt. 2:11). He did not know the sting of a hare lip or a cleft palate. He did not have to hobble around on a club foot. He suffered no anoxic brain injury at birth like some sufferers of cerebral palsy. Such a perfect man could not possibly understand what the rest of humanity undergoes on a daily basis and could not be a representative of the human race to God.

Doc


Thank you for the response, your posts have been a pleasure to read. I really do enjoy your wit and style, please do keep it up! Thumbsup

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21-11-2013, 06:16 PM
RE: DOC'S SEMI-AUTOMATIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (PRYING GOD INTO YOUR COLD, DEAD HEART SINCE 2013)
(21-11-2013 12:05 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Thank you for the response, your posts have been a pleasure to read. I really do enjoy your wit and style, please do keep it up! Thumbsup

Hear, Hear!

Doc, if you ever leave us again we will all surely die.

No pressure, though.

He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy! -Brian's mum
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22-11-2013, 10:21 AM
DOC'S SEMI-AUTOMATIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (PRYING GOD INTO YOUR COLD, DEAD HEART SINCE 2013)
(21-11-2013 06:16 PM)Cardinal Smurf Wrote:  
(21-11-2013 12:05 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Thank you for the response, your posts have been a pleasure to read. I really do enjoy your wit and style, please do keep it up! Thumbsup

Hear, Hear!

Doc, if you ever leave us again we will all surely die.

No pressure, though.

Evolution and Cardinal,
Thanks for the shiny apples on my desk this morning! You may both be excused from homework today.

Now, continuing with our discussion on the genetics of Jesus, I wish to bring up a point which I raised earlier in the thread but which I think is important enough to warrant repetition.

Each human ovum is genetically distinct and which ovarian follicle develops into the dominant follicle (which contains the ovum) and which ovary contains the "lucky" follicle appears to be chosen at random. The point is this: if Mary had been impregnated during a different ovarian cycle, would we have had a different Jesus from the one we now know? If it is claimed that there could have been no other alternative, then this suggests God's actions and the timing of his divine plan were constrained by a Jewish peasant girl's menstrual cycle!

It also inevitably follows that Mary was predestined to be born to carry the "lucky" ovum, her parents were predestined to bear her, and so on through all history. This means that all history is pre-ordained. God foresaw and planned all of history down to the "lucky" ovum in Mary's ovary, destroying any sense of free will in any of Mary's ancestors.

Fertilization depends on a host of other factors, including the timing of the copulation, the position used, the ambient temperature, and so on and so forth. A minute's delay in ejaculation would have introduced the sperm load in a different configuration, and perhaps a different spermatozoon would have won the race to the ovum. So Mary's mother (named Anna, by common Catholic belief) could never have claimed a "headache" the night that Mary was conceived.

Doc
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22-11-2013, 10:34 AM
RE: DOC'S FULLY AUTOMATIC SUNDAY SCHOOL-an affiliate of the National Religion Association
(22-11-2013 10:21 AM)docskeptic Wrote:  It also inevitably follows that Mary was predestined to be born to carry the "lucky" ovum, her parents were predestined to bear her, and so on through all history. This means that all history is pre-ordained. God foresaw and planned all of history down to the "lucky" ovum in Mary's ovary, destroying any sense of free will in any of Mary's ancestors.

That's what those heretical Calvinists, say, teach, but you'll let us know how they're wrong, won't you?

The only way anyone could convince me everything was predetermined would be if it were predetermined I be convinced of it. Otherwise I think quantum mechanics makes a pretty good case for randomness.

Hmm. If God just magicked up the Divine Sperm and shot it in, couldn't He have magicked up the Divine Egg to go with it? That would explain why Jesus had such a healthy north-Germanic pallor to him - none of his DNA came from his earthly parents! And couldn't God have altered Mary's hormone levels as needed for implantation to occur?

It's a miracle!

I mean, who are we to say what God can and can't do, right, teach?

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22-11-2013, 10:55 AM
RE: DOC'S FULLY AUTOMATIC SUNDAY SCHOOL-an affiliate of the National Religion Association
(22-11-2013 10:21 AM)docskeptic Wrote:  
(21-11-2013 06:16 PM)Cardinal Smurf Wrote:  Hear, Hear!

Doc, if you ever leave us again we will all surely die.

No pressure, though.

Evolution and Cardinal,
Thanks for the shiny apples on my desk this morning! You may both be excused from homework today.

Now, continuing with our discussion on the genetics of Jesus, I wish to bring up a point which I raised earlier in the thread but which I think is important enough to warrant repetition.

Each human ovum is genetically distinct and which ovarian follicle develops into the dominant follicle (which contains the ovum) and which ovary contains the "lucky" follicle appears to be chosen at random. The point is this: if Mary had been impregnated during a different ovarian cycle, would we have had a different Jesus from the one we now know? If it is claimed that there could have been no other alternative, then this suggests God's actions and the timing of his divine plan were constrained by a Jewish peasant girl's menstrual cycle!

It also inevitably follows that Mary was predestined to be born to carry the "lucky" ovum, her parents were predestined to bear her, and so on through all history. This means that all history is pre-ordained. God foresaw and planned all of history down to the "lucky" ovum in Mary's ovary, destroying any sense of free will in any of Mary's ancestors.

Fertilization depends on a host of other factors, including the timing of the copulation, the position used, the ambient temperature, and so on and so forth. A minute's delay in ejaculation would have introduced the sperm load in a different configuration, and perhaps a different spermatozoon would have won the race to the ovum. So Mary's mother (named Anna, by common Catholic belief) could never have claimed a "headache" the night that Mary was conceived.

Doc

Waving hand frantically from the back of the class, "Or it could, like, y'know, all be bollocks. Sir."

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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22-11-2013, 01:51 PM (This post was last modified: 22-11-2013 02:07 PM by docskeptic.)
DOC'S FULLY AUTOMATIC SUNDAY SCHOOL-an affiliate of the National Religion Association
Chas, waving hand frantically from the back of the class: Or it could, like, y'know, all be bollocks. Sir.

Doc (unsure): Yes! It could all be bollocks! Marvelous, too in my opinion.

cjlr: If God just magicked up the Divine Sperm and shot it in, couldn't He have magicked up the Divine Egg to go with it?

Doc: Oh, no, no, no! Jesus had to come from David's line to fulfill the prophecy in Jer. 23:5. Both Matthew and Luke went to extraordinary lengths to prove that both Joseph and Mary came from David's line.

cjlr: Assuming, then, that there was a divine spermatozoon with a 22 + XY configuration that fertilized Mary's 22 + XX ovum to create a 44 + XY male embryo (the future Jesus), then at what point did the embryo become divine? We know that Mary's ovum was not divine; therefore, it had to be the spermatozoon that contained the divine spark. If so, how did the divine spermatozoon differ from normal human sperm? If it was the genetic configuration of that particular spermatozoon that made it divine, then surely we can reproduce that specific combination in the laboratory (at least in principle). If it wasn't the genetic makeup, then what was it? There's not much else in a spermatozoon that divinity can rest in.

If the divinity was conferred upon the embryo after fertilization, this implies that Jesus's humanity and divinity were separate entities (a form of heresy known as Nestorianism), with one imposed upon the other, which conflicts with the orthodox teaching that Jesus was fully and simultaneously man and God, the so-called hypostatic union.

Doc: D'oh!
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23-11-2013, 10:49 AM
RE: DOC'S FULLY AUTOMATIC SUNDAY SCHOOL-an affiliate of the National Religion Association
(22-11-2013 01:51 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  Chas, waving hand frantically from the back of the class: Or it could, like, y'know, all be bollocks. Sir.

Doc (unsure): Yes! It could all be bollocks! Marvelous, too in my opinion.

cjlr: If God just magicked up the Divine Sperm and shot it in, couldn't He have magicked up the Divine Egg to go with it?

Doc: Oh, no, no, no! Jesus had to come from David's line to fulfill the prophecy in Jer. 23:5. Both Matthew and Luke went to extraordinary lengths to prove that both Joseph and Mary came from David's line.

cjlr: Assuming, then, that there was a divine spermatozoon with a 22 + XY configuration that fertilized Mary's 22 + XX ovum to create a 44 + XY male embryo (the future Jesus), then at what point did the embryo become divine? We know that Mary's ovum was not divine; therefore, it had to be the spermatozoon that contained the divine spark. If so, how did the divine spermatozoon differ from normal human sperm? If it was the genetic configuration of that particular spermatozoon that made it divine, then surely we can reproduce that specific combination in the laboratory (at least in principle). If it wasn't the genetic makeup, then what was it? There's not much else in a spermatozoon that divinity can rest in.

If the divinity was conferred upon the embryo after fertilization, this implies that Jesus's humanity and divinity were separate entities (a form of heresy known as Nestorianism), with one imposed upon the other, which conflicts with the orthodox teaching that Jesus was fully and simultaneously man and God, the so-called hypostatic union.

Doc: D'oh!

Well We could also consider the Pre-Justinian doctrine of a non-divine Jesus. The Gnostics for example believed he was a holy man but not a man-god. That solves a great deal of the problems. Also if we just go ahead and rip out all the Pauline and Pseudo-Pauline passages we can lose the Greek Mystery Cult aspects and a good deal of the misogyny and other undesirable traits. Of course that just leaves us with 4 contradictory accounts but with some careful editing I think we can redact the Bible down to what should be it's core message.

Book Of Stark Chapter 1 Verse 1: Don't Be A Dick!

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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23-11-2013, 11:56 AM (This post was last modified: 23-11-2013 12:01 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: DOC'S FULLY AUTOMATIC SUNDAY SCHOOL-an affiliate of the National Religion Association
(23-11-2013 10:49 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(22-11-2013 01:51 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  Chas, waving hand frantically from the back of the class: Or it could, like, y'know, all be bollocks. Sir.

Doc (unsure): Yes! It could all be bollocks! Marvelous, too in my opinion.

cjlr: If God just magicked up the Divine Sperm and shot it in, couldn't He have magicked up the Divine Egg to go with it?

Doc: Oh, no, no, no! Jesus had to come from David's line to fulfill the prophecy in Jer. 23:5. Both Matthew and Luke went to extraordinary lengths to prove that both Joseph and Mary came from David's line.

cjlr: Assuming, then, that there was a divine spermatozoon with a 22 + XY configuration that fertilized Mary's 22 + XX ovum to create a 44 + XY male embryo (the future Jesus), then at what point did the embryo become divine? We know that Mary's ovum was not divine; therefore, it had to be the spermatozoon that contained the divine spark. If so, how did the divine spermatozoon differ from normal human sperm? If it was the genetic configuration of that particular spermatozoon that made it divine, then surely we can reproduce that specific combination in the laboratory (at least in principle). If it wasn't the genetic makeup, then what was it? There's not much else in a spermatozoon that divinity can rest in.

If the divinity was conferred upon the embryo after fertilization, this implies that Jesus's humanity and divinity were separate entities (a form of heresy known as Nestorianism), with one imposed upon the other, which conflicts with the orthodox teaching that Jesus was fully and simultaneously man and God, the so-called hypostatic union.

Doc: D'oh!

Well We could also consider the Pre-Justinian doctrine of a non-divine Jesus. The Gnostics for example believed he was a holy man but not a man-god. That solves a great deal of the problems. Also if we just go ahead and rip out all the Pauline and Pseudo-Pauline passages we can lose the Greek Mystery Cult aspects and a good deal of the misogyny and other undesirable traits. Of course that just leaves us with 4 contradictory accounts but with some careful editing I think we can redact the Bible down to what should be it's core message.

Book Of Stark Chapter 1 Verse 1: Don't Be A Dick!

Bucky, (mumbling again and talking, generally being disruptive, and throwing spit balls in class) ....

The notion of "divine" in NO way equates with "equivalent with Yahweh" status. What does the Witch of Endor say when asked to describe the "shade" of Saul which she, (illegally) conjures ? "I see a divine being ...etc etc". So solly to make it all so fucking complicated. More mumbling. For centuries the "filioque" and "fully human, fully divine" argument went on. Clearly they were cooking up shit, and retroactively trying to justify it. The idea of the human nature being possible was based in the pre-scientific age, when the sperm was thought to contain ALL the information for the baby, and the woman's role simply to provide the "fertile ground" for the complete information package to germinate, and grow, (even though there were elements of "co-mingling" (of blood), which were thought to result in some traits in the baby.

The "sperm race" is not "won" by the first one getting to the oocyte. The acrosome of the first sperm cell injects enzymes which prepare the egg surface to accept one sperm, later. Sperm, on the way to the uterus undergo "capacitation". When a few HUNDRED reach the egg, their acrosomes release penetration enzymes, (hyaluronidase and acrosin, among others), that can penetrate the granulosa cells and zona pedicula, surrounding the oocyte. Only AFTER the path has been cleared by the first spermies to get there, is one allowed to bind to the zona pedicula. Then only the sperm head and midpeace enter, and the egg destroys the sperm mitochondria, (and only the maternal one is passed on). Frequently this process results in polyspermy, (the triploid state), ("intelligently designed, doncha know), and the egg self-destructs. There are exquisite chemical systems to prevent this, (Calcium exchange) but Bucky is busy looking out the window, at .... um, never mind, ... so this can be discussed in a further Birds And Bees Sunday School.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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23-11-2013, 12:00 PM
RE: DOC'S FULLY AUTOMATIC SUNDAY SCHOOL-an affiliate of the National Religion Association
(23-11-2013 11:56 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(23-11-2013 10:49 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Well We could also consider the Pre-Justinian doctrine of a non-divine Jesus. The Gnostics for example believed he was a holy man but not a man-god. That solves a great deal of the problems. Also if we just go ahead and rip out all the Pauline and Pseudo-Pauline passages we can lose the Greek Mystery Cult aspects and a good deal of the misogyny and other undesirable traits. Of course that just leaves us with 4 contradictory accounts but with some careful editing I think we can redact the Bible down to what should be it's core message.

Book Of Stark Chapter 1 Verse 1: Don't Be A Dick!

Bucky, (mumbling again and talking, generally being disruptive, and throwing spit balls in class) ....

The notion of "divine" in NO way equates with "equivalent with Yahweh" status. What does the Witch of Endor say when asked to describe the "shade" of Saul which she, (illegally) conjures ? "I see a divine being ...etc etc". So solly to make it all so fucking complicated. More mumbling. For centuries the "filioque" and "fully human, fully divine" argument went on. Clearly they were cooking up shit, and retroactively trying to justify it. The idea of the human nature being possible was based in the pre-scientific age, when the sperm was thought to contain ALL the information for the baby, and the woman's role simply to provide the "fertile ground" for the complete information paackage to germinate, and grow, (even though there were elements of "co-mingling" (of blood), which were thought to result in some traits in the baby.

The "sperm race" is not "won" by the first one getting to the oocyte. The acrosome of the first sperm cell injects enzymes which prepare the egg surface to accept one sperm, later. Sperm, on the way to the uterus undergo "capacitation". When a few HUNDRED reach the egg, their acrosomes release penetration enzymes, (hyaluronidase and acrosin, among others), that can penetrate the granulosa cells and zona pedicula, surrounding the oocyte. Only AFTER the path has been cleared by the first spermies to get there, is one allowed to bind to the zona pedicula. Then only the sperm head and midpeace enter, and the egg destroys the sperm mitochondria, (and only the maternal one is passed on). Frequently this process results in polyspermy, (the triploid state), ("intelligently designed, doncha know), and the egg self-destructs. There are exquisite chemical systems to prevent this, (Calcium exchange) but Bucky is busy looking out the window, at .... um, never mind, ... so this can be discussed in a further Birds And Bees Sunday School.

*Raises his hand*

"Hey if we got to listen to Bucky and his scientific mumbo-jumbo I say we give equal time to the Stork Theory. It is a far better explanation and one rooted in tradition. I mean if we are gonna read Genesis we might as well do this."

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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23-11-2013, 12:14 PM
RE: DOC'S FULLY AUTOMATIC SUNDAY SCHOOL-an affiliate of the National Religion Association
(23-11-2013 12:00 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(23-11-2013 11:56 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Bucky, (mumbling again and talking, generally being disruptive, and throwing spit balls in class) ....

The notion of "divine" in NO way equates with "equivalent with Yahweh" status. What does the Witch of Endor say when asked to describe the "shade" of Saul which she, (illegally) conjures ? "I see a divine being ...etc etc". So solly to make it all so fucking complicated. More mumbling. For centuries the "filioque" and "fully human, fully divine" argument went on. Clearly they were cooking up shit, and retroactively trying to justify it. The idea of the human nature being possible was based in the pre-scientific age, when the sperm was thought to contain ALL the information for the baby, and the woman's role simply to provide the "fertile ground" for the complete information paackage to germinate, and grow, (even though there were elements of "co-mingling" (of blood), which were thought to result in some traits in the baby.

The "sperm race" is not "won" by the first one getting to the oocyte. The acrosome of the first sperm cell injects enzymes which prepare the egg surface to accept one sperm, later. Sperm, on the way to the uterus undergo "capacitation". When a few HUNDRED reach the egg, their acrosomes release penetration enzymes, (hyaluronidase and acrosin, among others), that can penetrate the granulosa cells and zona pedicula, surrounding the oocyte. Only AFTER the path has been cleared by the first spermies to get there, is one allowed to bind to the zona pedicula. Then only the sperm head and midpeace enter, and the egg destroys the sperm mitochondria, (and only the maternal one is passed on). Frequently this process results in polyspermy, (the triploid state), ("intelligently designed, doncha know), and the egg self-destructs. There are exquisite chemical systems to prevent this, (Calcium exchange) but Bucky is busy looking out the window, at .... um, never mind, ... so this can be discussed in a further Birds And Bees Sunday School.

*Raises his hand*

"Hey if we got to listen to Bucky and his scientific mumbo-jumbo I say we give equal time to the Stork Theory. It is a far better explanation and one rooted in tradition. I mean if we are gonna read Genesis we might as well do this."

Stork Theory. I wish I could have used that last year. I was compelled to take Advanced A & P. I thought, "no fucking way can I get an A in this class ... oh well, there goes my 4.0". I got an email from the instructor right before the final, "you do realize you have one of the only 'A' grades going, I will have ever given in this course, so be sure and prepare well for the final". Fuck. No pressure THERE. I did it, but I suspect by maybe, 1 point. Weeping He kept watching me in the final. I was thinking, "I know he's trying to figure out how I'm cheating". Tongue He's this super-duper egg-head adjunct professor, on load from a damn NEUROSURGERY fucking department. Like anyone has a chance there.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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