Doc's bishopric Sunday School (Noun or adjective? One word or two?)
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11-01-2016, 04:30 PM
RE: Doc's pedagogic Sunday School (no, it's not what you think it is)
(11-01-2016 02:43 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(11-01-2016 02:24 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  So, there is an interesting sequel to this episode. After destroying (most of) Saul's household, David himself faced a revolt led by his son Absalom (2 Samuel 15) and was forced into exile. While he was fleeing, he came across a man called Shimei who cursed him from a distance saying, “Get out, get out, you murderer, you scoundrel! The Lord has repaid you for all the blood you shed in the household of Saul, in whose place you have reigned. The Lord has given the kingdom into the hands of your son Absalom. You have come to ruin because you are a murderer!”

David's followers wanted to kill Shimei, but David asked them to "Leave him alone; let him curse, for the Lord has told him to." In fact in 2 Sameul 19, when David returned in triumph after defeating Absalom and met Shimei again, he pardoned him saying, "“You shall not die.” And the king promised him on oath."

However, when he was on his deathbed, David appears to have changed his mind. In 1 Kings 2, he tells his successor, Solomon, "And remember, you have with you Shimei son of Gera, I swore to him by the Lord: ‘I will not put you to death by the sword.’ But now, do not consider him innocent. You are a man of wisdom; you will know what to do to him. Bring his gray head down to the grave in blood.”

These were the last words of David before he died.

I just thought I'd share.

Doc

I know that the Jewish conception of afterlife was / is different to the NT version, in that throughout the OT people seemed to fear dying, and the LORD would smite people and *kill* them as a punishment for innocuous things like trying not to let the ark of the covenant fall while in transit by lending a helpful shoulder and so forth, which seems odd, since... y'know, in the NT it was made clear that killing someone wasn't hardly a punishment at all, since what was to be feared was going to hell.

Like, ol' Solomon's gonna go and whack this geezer over the head for insulting his daddy-o, but the geezer didn't exactly commit a sin right? So according to NT shouldn't he be going to heaven? So what's to fear about having your gray head brought down to the grave in blood? What's the point of Solomon doing it? It only makes sense to me if the *dying* is what is to be feared.

i.e. I think people back then were more sensible than people now and knew that if you kill a cow there's no essence of cow that keeps going, it's kaput! Finish. Ended. And the same applies to humans...

Just some thoughts... not sure how factual they may be.

But if you kill the cow, don't forget to use the beef steak! Call it essence of cow or not, which ever you prefer!
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11-01-2016, 04:32 PM
RE: Doc's pedagogic Sunday School (no, it's not what you think it is)
(02-04-2013 06:28 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(02-04-2013 06:22 PM)Cardinal Smurf Wrote:  Wow, why did I never think to follow him? On it!

And on that day dear children the first seeds of Fryism were born. Soon to raze the world in fire and put to the sword all the non-followers of the feed. Now let us all recite shakespeare in the nude as our lord did intend.

My brother-in-law always claimed to be a nudist buddhist!
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11-01-2016, 09:14 PM (This post was last modified: 11-01-2016 10:07 PM by docskeptic.)
RE: Doc's pedagogic Sunday School (no, it's not what you think it is)
(11-01-2016 02:55 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(11-01-2016 02:24 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  So, there is an interesting sequel to this episode. After destroying (most of) Saul's household, David himself faced a revolt led by his son Absalom (2 Samuel 15) and was forced into exile. While he was fleeing, he came across a man called Shimei who cursed him from a distance saying, “Get out, get out, you murderer, you scoundrel! The Lord has repaid you for all the blood you shed in the household of Saul, in whose place you have reigned. The Lord has given the kingdom into the hands of your son Absalom. You have come to ruin because you are a murderer!”

David's followers wanted to kill Shimei, but David asked them to "Leave him alone; let him curse, for the Lord has told him to." In fact in 2 Sameul 19, when David returned in triumph after defeating Absalom and met Shimei again, he pardoned him saying, "“You shall not die.” And the king promised him on oath."

However, when he was on his deathbed, David appears to have changed his mind. In 1 Kings 2, he tells his successor, Solomon, "And remember, you have with you Shimei son of Gera, I swore to him by the Lord: ‘I will not put you to death by the sword.’ But now, do not consider him innocent. You are a man of wisdom; you will know what to do to him. Bring his gray head down to the grave in blood.”

These were the last words of David before he died.

I just thought I'd share.

Doc

This reminds me so much of The Godfather, where Michael had a whole list of people to kill, but only after old Vito was dead.


How uncanny. David ("Mad Dog") also had a hit list. Look what he says in 1 Kings 2: 5-6 (original Sicilian version): "Yo, Solomon. When you become-a-da capo, don' fuhgeddabout Joab. You whack-a-da sumbitch, capiche?"

The NIV translates it as, "Now you yourself know what Joab son of Zeruiah did to me—what he did to the two commanders of Israel’s armies, Abner son of Ner and Amasa son of Jether. He killed them, shedding their blood in peacetime as if in battle, and with that blood he stained the belt around his waist and the sandals on his feet. Deal with him according to your wisdom, but do not let his gray head go down to the grave in peace."

Doc
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08-08-2016, 09:08 AM
RE: Doc's anachronistic Sunday School (slightly behind the times since 2013)
So, I was always aware that deep misogyny pervaded the Bible, and recently I read something in Job that reinforced that notion.

We are all familiar with the story of Job. Basically, God bets Satan that Job will remain true to him (God) even if the devil assaulted him (with God's permission) with all his might and devastated his property, his home, his family and finally his own health. Following these events, three of Job's friends show up and try to justify his misfortunes by suggesting that Job must have had some secret sin for which he is being punished by God.

Job retaliates by claiming his own innocence and in Job 31: 9, he says the following: "If my heart has been seduced by a woman, or if I have lusted for my neighbor’s wife, then let my wife belong to another man; let other men sleep with her."

In essence, Job suggests that any little peccadillo on his part could be adequately recompensed by having his own wife assaulted by other men.

How this escaped me when I was still a believer is beyond me.

Doc
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08-08-2016, 09:27 AM
RE: Doc's anachronistic Sunday School (slightly behind the times since 2013)
(08-08-2016 09:08 AM)docskeptic Wrote:  So, I was always aware that deep misogyny pervaded the Bible, and recently I read something in Job that reinforced that notion.

We are all familiar with the story of Job. Basically, God bets Satan that Job will remain true to him (God) even if the devil assaulted him (with God's permission) with all his might and devastated his property, his home, his family and finally his own health. Following these events, three of Job's friends show up and try to justify his misfortunes by suggesting that Job must have had some secret sin for which he is being punished by God.

Job retaliates by claiming his own innocence and in Job 31: 9, he says the following: "If my heart has been seduced by a woman, or if I have lusted for my neighbor’s wife, then let my wife belong to another man; let other men sleep with her."

In essence, Job suggests that any little peccadillo on his part could be adequately recompensed by having his own wife assaulted by other men.

How this escaped me when I was still a believer is beyond me.

Doc

I love you Doc! (not in that way Blush ) I'm gonna trot this one out next time some theist is getting all moralising about abortion or some such Smile

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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08-08-2016, 09:53 AM
RE: Doc's anachronistic Sunday School (slightly behind the times since 2013)
Sorry, teacher, I can't agree on this one.

In modern parlance this is Job saying to his buddies, "Fuck no! If I even fucked one goat, then let my whole flock be fucked by the goat-fucking police" or "if I ever took more than was owed to me, let my whole bank account be fleeced".

He's not saying it's adequate compensation, he's saying "I swear I never! And may I lose something of great value if I'm lying."

He's defending his integrity with hyperbole.

Now, the fact that his wife is considered to be unquestionably his property... that's the part that should offend our modern sensibilities.

Yes

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08-08-2016, 11:11 AM (This post was last modified: 08-08-2016 11:18 AM by docskeptic.)
RE: Doc's anachronistic Sunday School (slightly behind the times since 2013)
DLJ, I agree. My point is that Job should have said, "If I ever cheated with a woman, may God strike ME dead or make ME impotent, or whatever ". Rather, he's saying, "Let my wife bear the penalty". The original Hebrew says, "Let my wife grind for someone else. May another bow over her", indicating that she had no say in the matter.

Doc
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08-08-2016, 11:28 AM
RE: Doc's anachronistic Sunday School (slightly behind the times since 2013)
Welcome back doc, man I've missed you!

I think doc has a valid point even if he would have stopped at "If my heart has been seduced by a woman". Notice that Job takes no responsibility and placed the sin squarely on the woman's shoulders, as the seducer.

"Men... Not being able to keep their pecker in their pockets since, like, forever."

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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08-08-2016, 12:00 PM
RE: Doc's anachronistic Sunday School (slightly behind the times since 2013)
Sorry, FC. It's been a rough few months. My elderly, demented, paraplegic mother has moved in with us and my wife and I have been her caregivers. Not much leisure time nowadays. I have a new-found respect for caregivers.

Doc
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09-08-2016, 06:54 AM
RE: Doc's anachronistic Sunday School (slightly behind the times since 2013)
(08-08-2016 09:27 AM)morondog Wrote:  I love you Doc! (not in that way Blush ) I'm gonna trot this one out next time some theist is getting all moralising about abortion or some such Smile

Aww, md, you're making me blush. I didn't know you felt that way but I'm already spoken for.

If you liked that little vignette of Biblical misogyny, consider the following. The book of Nehemiah tells the story of the Jews' return from Babylonian exile under the leadership of Nehemiah, the king's cup-bearer. In the book, Nehemiah speaks about how the Jews had defiled themselves by marrying non-Jews and not teaching their kids to speak Hebrew. Here's what he says in Nehemiah 14: 23-26:

"In those days also I saw the Jews who had married women of Ashdod, Ammon, and Moab. And half of their children spoke the language of Ashdod, and they could not speak the language of Judah, but only the language of each people. And I confronted them and cursed them and beat some of them and pulled out their hair. And I made them take an oath in the name of God, saying, “You shall not give your daughters to their sons, or take their daughters for your sons or for yourselves. Did not Solomon king of Israel sin on account of such women? Among the many nations there was no king like him, and he was beloved by his God, and God made him king over all Israel. Nevertheless, foreign women made even him to sin."

Aside from the incongruous picture of a hero of the Bible bitch-slappin' and hair-pullin', we can easily see that it is always the woman's fault in making the man sin.

Doc
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